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Realistically everything you listed here all requires you to come from at least an upper middle class family to attempt. My family couldn't even afford for me t

Realistically everything you listed here all requires you to come from at least an upper middle class family to attempt. My family couldn't even afford for me to join a club in high school. There is in reality no real fair way of selecting candidates without knowing more personal information such as their families tax history, income level, demographics, citizenship, etc.

WalterBright 4y ago
I'm not aware of any clubs in my high school that charged its members. Not even the Boy Scouts. None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application.
- metalforever 4y ago
  I can answer this because I was in this position. Parents couldnt afford the gas. They worked long hours to make ends meet and couldn’t take time to drive me to this stuff even if they had the gas money. Finally, there’s just not a lot of ECs available in a lot of poor areas , like the one I came from. I filled that space in the app talking about my hobbies instead because there was no money. Yeah.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The school clubs met after school, one was there anyway. The Boy Scouts also met within walking distance. The Scouts used to meet at public schools, but the people who hate the Scouts got them kicked out because they had a religious requirement for one of the ranks.
    - metalforever 4y ago
      Can you please explain how the child would get home from the after school activity, if it existed? I’m being clear when I am saying there really aren’t any EC options . In poor areas , there’s no money because school funding comes from property tax . Where I went, the funding was so tight they had to fire the foreign language , art teachers and music teachers . If they can’t afford regular instructors , where is the money coming from for the ECs?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. The Boy Scouts didn't run on money. A chess club, book club, drama club, dance club, photography club, math club, etc., don't require money. Besides, creating something from nothing is going to look a lot better on an application than following a course that is laid out by instructors and papered with cash.
        atonse 4y ago
        Yup same here. Public school was walking distance (20 min walk but not a big deal) so I didn’t rely on my parents. We also had a public metrobus route with discounted fare.
        actionablefiber 4y ago
        > I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are on the opposite side of an eight lane highway that has no crosswalks or sidewalks (on the school side) for at least a quarter mile. The town believes so strongly that no one should walk or bike to school that they zoned the school and built out the roads such that attempting to do so would sooner or later result in certain death.
        metalforever 4y ago
        Yeah this was the issue. It’s probably a common one in rural areas like the one I am from. These areas also tend to lack public transit.
        andrepd 4y ago
        /r/fuckcars moment, but yes you're absolutely right. Transportation in the US seems to be getting worse as time passes, it's actually incredible.
    - fortran77 4y ago
      > but the people who hate the Scouts got them kicked out because they had a religious requirement for one of the ranks. Actually people who love our Constitution got them kicked out.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        In my career in the Scouts, there was not one religious thing done in any of it. There was "trustworthy loyal helpful ... brave clean reverent", and AFAIK the reverent was only a word, with even less meaning than "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance at school, or "in God we trust" on the currency. There was no religious requirement for being a Boy Scout, there were never any religious ceremonies at meetings, religion was never even mentioned in any of the activities or meetings. The only thing was one requirement for the Eagle Scout. The religious thing was just a convenient excuse for the people who hated the Scouts.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      > The school clubs met after school, one was there anyway. And how did students get home after the club meetings were over, since the school buses weren't running anymore? > The Boy Scouts also met within walking distance. Is it really that hard to understand that many people don't live within walking distance of their school, or of where clubs might meet? Or at least safe walking distance; the last house I lived in before college was certainly within walking distance of quite a few things, but that would require walking along sidewalk-less, shoulder-less, limited-visibility, twisty roads with cars zipping around corners at 45mph. Even if my parents would have allowed me to walk along those roads (they wouldn't), I don't think even my "invincible" teenage self would have felt comfortable with that. I was lucky that my mom was available to drive me to and from places after school, and on days when she wasn't, I could sometimes find a neighbor, or a schoolmate's parents to help. But many kids just don't have that option. More kids than it seems you realize.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > many people don't live within walking distance True. You can say anything at all about people, and there will be many exceptions. Parents with kids tend to make an effort to be within range of the local school. > More kids than it seems you realize. I'm aware I have a different perception of walking distance that is quite a bit further than most parents, based on how far from the local schools I see kids walking to/from. It peters out to about 0 at the half mile mark.
  - atonse 4y ago
    Not sure where you went to school but I went to a public school in DC. Both my immigrant parents worked crazy hours so I spent my evenings playing with friends and in various clubs. Computer Club, Orchestra (early morning practice), various sports like tennis and soccer. None of it cost my parents a penny, it was all free. Even school uniforms were free. I know generally in public schools, things are almost always free. If they aren’t, there are pathways to pay for it.
    - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      No, not remotely. Your experience is hilariously atypical of public school experiences.
    - Izkata 4y ago
      Same here. You were expected to find your own way home afterwards since the buses were long gone (parents drive you, upperclassmen gives you a ride, bike, walk, etc, so I guess cost of gas could factor in here), but in general none of the clubs cost anything to join.
- andrepd 4y ago
  > None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application. Obviously that's not the point, as I'm sure you understand. It's that children lower-income families tend to have a harder time succeeding in school or participating in extracurriculars (maybe they don't have transportation, maybe they need to help with chores and cooking because parents work two jobs, maybe they don't have educated parents with free time to help with homework, etc etc etc), while higher-income families can afford all the help. Note that of course the same problem applies in myriad other situations: children in unstable households, with parents victim of domestic violence, with parents with mental health or drug addiction issues, etc. This (correlation between parent's income and educational success) is both intuitively clear and also amply documented.

WalterBright 4y ago

I'm not aware of any clubs in my high school that charged its members. Not even the Boy Scouts. None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application.

metalforever 4y ago
I can answer this because I was in this position. Parents couldnt afford the gas. They worked long hours to make ends meet and couldn’t take time to drive me to this stuff even if they had the gas money. Finally, there’s just not a lot of ECs available in a lot of poor areas , like the one I came from. I filled that space in the app talking about my hobbies instead because there was no money. Yeah.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The school clubs met after school, one was there anyway. The Boy Scouts also met within walking distance. The Scouts used to meet at public schools, but the people who hate the Scouts got them kicked out because they had a religious requirement for one of the ranks.
  - metalforever 4y ago
    Can you please explain how the child would get home from the after school activity, if it existed? I’m being clear when I am saying there really aren’t any EC options . In poor areas , there’s no money because school funding comes from property tax . Where I went, the funding was so tight they had to fire the foreign language , art teachers and music teachers . If they can’t afford regular instructors , where is the money coming from for the ECs?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. The Boy Scouts didn't run on money. A chess club, book club, drama club, dance club, photography club, math club, etc., don't require money. Besides, creating something from nothing is going to look a lot better on an application than following a course that is laid out by instructors and papered with cash.
      - atonse 4y ago
        Yup same here. Public school was walking distance (20 min walk but not a big deal) so I didn’t rely on my parents. We also had a public metrobus route with discounted fare.
      - actionablefiber 4y ago
        > I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are on the opposite side of an eight lane highway that has no crosswalks or sidewalks (on the school side) for at least a quarter mile. The town believes so strongly that no one should walk or bike to school that they zoned the school and built out the roads such that attempting to do so would sooner or later result in certain death.
        metalforever 4y ago
        Yeah this was the issue. It’s probably a common one in rural areas like the one I am from. These areas also tend to lack public transit.
        andrepd 4y ago
        /r/fuckcars moment, but yes you're absolutely right. Transportation in the US seems to be getting worse as time passes, it's actually incredible.
  - fortran77 4y ago
    > but the people who hate the Scouts got them kicked out because they had a religious requirement for one of the ranks. Actually people who love our Constitution got them kicked out.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      In my career in the Scouts, there was not one religious thing done in any of it. There was "trustworthy loyal helpful ... brave clean reverent", and AFAIK the reverent was only a word, with even less meaning than "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance at school, or "in God we trust" on the currency. There was no religious requirement for being a Boy Scout, there were never any religious ceremonies at meetings, religion was never even mentioned in any of the activities or meetings. The only thing was one requirement for the Eagle Scout. The religious thing was just a convenient excuse for the people who hated the Scouts.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > The school clubs met after school, one was there anyway. And how did students get home after the club meetings were over, since the school buses weren't running anymore? > The Boy Scouts also met within walking distance. Is it really that hard to understand that many people don't live within walking distance of their school, or of where clubs might meet? Or at least safe walking distance; the last house I lived in before college was certainly within walking distance of quite a few things, but that would require walking along sidewalk-less, shoulder-less, limited-visibility, twisty roads with cars zipping around corners at 45mph. Even if my parents would have allowed me to walk along those roads (they wouldn't), I don't think even my "invincible" teenage self would have felt comfortable with that. I was lucky that my mom was available to drive me to and from places after school, and on days when she wasn't, I could sometimes find a neighbor, or a schoolmate's parents to help. But many kids just don't have that option. More kids than it seems you realize.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > many people don't live within walking distance True. You can say anything at all about people, and there will be many exceptions. Parents with kids tend to make an effort to be within range of the local school. > More kids than it seems you realize. I'm aware I have a different perception of walking distance that is quite a bit further than most parents, based on how far from the local schools I see kids walking to/from. It peters out to about 0 at the half mile mark.
- atonse 4y ago
  Not sure where you went to school but I went to a public school in DC. Both my immigrant parents worked crazy hours so I spent my evenings playing with friends and in various clubs. Computer Club, Orchestra (early morning practice), various sports like tennis and soccer. None of it cost my parents a penny, it was all free. Even school uniforms were free. I know generally in public schools, things are almost always free. If they aren’t, there are pathways to pay for it.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    No, not remotely. Your experience is hilariously atypical of public school experiences.
  - Izkata 4y ago
    Same here. You were expected to find your own way home afterwards since the buses were long gone (parents drive you, upperclassmen gives you a ride, bike, walk, etc, so I guess cost of gas could factor in here), but in general none of the clubs cost anything to join.
andrepd 4y ago
> None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application. Obviously that's not the point, as I'm sure you understand. It's that children lower-income families tend to have a harder time succeeding in school or participating in extracurriculars (maybe they don't have transportation, maybe they need to help with chores and cooking because parents work two jobs, maybe they don't have educated parents with free time to help with homework, etc etc etc), while higher-income families can afford all the help. Note that of course the same problem applies in myriad other situations: children in unstable households, with parents victim of domestic violence, with parents with mental health or drug addiction issues, etc. This (correlation between parent's income and educational success) is both intuitively clear and also amply documented.