9 ms·

Here's a link from the article to more information on the child labor violations: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supplier-alabama-fine

by jmull 4y ago

Here's a link from the article to more information on the child labor violations: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supplier-alabama-fined-child-labor-violations-2022-10-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supp... (This links to more info.) Wow. I think the thing that shocks me the most is that the punishment from the Department of Labor is a very mild slap-on-the-wrist. A small fine and a promise not to do it any more. This should basically be the end of that company entirely. Instead they just have to point the finger at some low-level managers, fire them, and keep on rolling. I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. The children can't consent. That's essentially child slave labor. If Hyundai/Kia drops them, that would at least be a much bigger penalty than the DOL imposed.

irusensei 4y ago
Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for you. Its all green as long as the coal or oil burning is being done away from your borders.
- danans 4y ago
  > Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for you. That's been happening forever, not just the current year. Child labor sweatshops were a major source of industrial productivity for centuries the world over until relatively recently. Charles Dickens' novels turned it into an adjective in English bearing his name that described (among other things) the indifference of those in power to child labor.
  - blacksqr 4y ago
    They used the term "current year" because it can be repeated verbatim any year going back forever.
    - danans 4y ago
      That's not an English idiom that I've ever heard or read before. The lack of a "the" before "current" suggests it's a translation from a language that does not make compulsory use of articles. Perhaps it's an idiom in that language.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Bracketing current year would have made it a little more comprehensible
        danans 4y ago
        I agree. That would have changed the meaning completely.
      - anon_123g987 4y ago
        I've only ever read this on Hacker News, in the form "Welcome to $current_year!", where $ is the scalar sigil in the Perl programming language, indicating that it's a variable, and should be substituted by the reader as necessary.
      - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
inetknght 4y ago
- kennywinker 4y ago
  To the casual eye those are two distinct issues. Child labour is like a child protection thing, and labour protection is like a commie socialism thing. I’m no expert, but these things are historically intertwined. The fact that we even have laws against child labour is a product of 1930s labour organizing.
faeriechangling 4y ago
I‘be always wondered why kids can’t consent to work but can consent to school.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  They don't have the choice of consenting to school or not. It is compulsory
  - knaekhoved 4y ago
    That is very clearly the GP's entire point.
    - watwut 4y ago
      But it failed, because kids don't consent to school. They don't have to go to school, but the decision is completely on parents. And when parents decide to homeschool or unschool, kids have no say either.
      - knaekhoved 4y ago
        OK, so, following GPs argument, would that justify making kids work without asking them if they wanted to? The point is that allowing kids to work is clearly not as egregious as forcing them to attend prison-style schools, and yet we punish the former and support the latter.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        The whole line of argument is junk
        watwut 4y ago
        There is no argument that you could followning from what OP said. I have never seen anyone argue that kids consent to school. It does not exist. I did heard about some homeschool parents claiming their kids wanted it that way, but even that came from homeschooled kids unhappy with that decision (meaning biased narrator and heavily self selected group). Homeschool parents I heard talking said they think it is best for kids. > forcing them to attend prison-style schools That is not true for most kids. If your parents pay for one of those camps for troubled teenagers, then it is prison like. If you commit crime then yes, your school will be prison. If you have enough behavioral issues to end up in one of those special schools, it gets closer to prison. But no, schools are not prison like for overwhelming majority of kids. Going further, majority of kids has neutral or positive attitude toward schools. Some hate it, but they are minority.
neither_color 4y ago
SL Alabama told Reuters in a statement that a staffing agency had furnished some employees to the plant who were not old enough to work there. SL said it had cooperated with regulators, terminated its relationship with the staffing firm, agreed to fines and other corrective actions, and replaced the president of the facility. It sounds like JK USA will rightfully be destroyed by this. If it really was just a handful of kids employed by a sub sub contractor I don't see why everyone in the whole factory should lose their livelihoods. The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to send their kids to a factory.
- lettergram 4y ago
  > The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to send their kids to a factory. I started mowing lawns at 12. Pretty heavy machinery; massive spinning blade, could lose an arm! Luckily I had that opportunity, I was able to make money and pay for clothes. Learn responsibility, self-respect, etc. I do think child labor laws are there to protect children. However, we don’t know the circumstances and I think in most cases child labor laws do more harm than good. Here are some important details: > In a separate statement on Tuesday, Alabama’s state DOL said it had levied around $35,000 in total in civil penalties on SL Alabama and JK USA, a temporary labor recruiting firm. JK USA employed five minors between the ages of 13 and 16 at the plant, the state DOL said. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supplier-alabama-fined-child-labor-violations-2022-10-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supp... To me, it could be as simple as a few guys brought their kids who wanted to make an extra buck. They could have just been picking up metal scraps. We don’t know. What I can say is in high school I knew multiple people whos family worked in metal works and the kids would help out and get paid. Some kids were as young as 10, but everyone was safe and it appeared to be in everyone’s interest
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    Most sane countries in the world allow adolescents to work some time when school is not on or when doing an apprenticeship. Most don’t legally consider a kid mowing lawns for a stipend labour. There is a pretty major difference between that and doing work for an auto supplier while being staffed by a temp agency.
emodendroket 4y ago
I read an article in the New York Times maybe around ten years ago where some researchers called some labor departments to report child labor (it wasn't actually happening that they knew of; the point was to see how they would respond). They were basically uninterested and didn't follow up. In short, I'm less surprised but it is appalling.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  This is apparently a common response. Check out Reveal’s major investigative series on the punitive and profit-driven rehab industry which depends on unpaid labor. The government has done virtually nothing about it for 50 years. https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/ https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/
- hammock 4y ago
  Unless there is enough behind it to become a viral news story (a photo, video, a document) there is little incentive for these authorities to act. For this reason, ensuring the freedom of whistleblowers, Wikileaks and others is so important. Without that, it becomes much easier for the authorities - which we trust our rights to - to do nothing and get away with it
- lupire 4y ago
  Government only cares about crime against wealthy property owners.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    California, Oregon, Illinois clearly do not. As businesses are fleeing in droves.
legitster 4y ago
Part of the problem is that if the DOL goes after every underage worker in the economy, the biggest offenders by far would be family businesses and restaurants. It's all well and good to make parents send their kids to school. But at a certain point the punishments can exacerbate child poverty.
- lovich 4y ago
  Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it’s outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction into working for children instead of a hard line at 18. What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate child poverty
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    > Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it’s outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction into working for children instead of a hard line at 18. Fun fact, tax breaks encourage this as long as you report the income, then some of the parents' income can be offset by the income that the child "earns" as that is tax deductible. Of course this is not financial advice and consult your own tax professional. > What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate child poverty Much of the labor lately in grocery and fast food has been underage or young workers.
lovich 4y ago
We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] and farm labor for 13 year olds. That’s not to defend this practice but to point out it’s not as big an ethical leap for someone already observing situations close to this and rationalizing it as just pushing the envelope a bit in their mind. [1]see the text of the 13th amendment and how private prisons operate if you are one of the 10000 today whose just learning this
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lostlogin 4y ago
  > We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] Also see prison labour.
  - lovich 4y ago
    That is what I am referencing. As far as legal slave labor in the Us is concerned, it requires it being punishment for breaking the law
    - zaphar 4y ago
      I think there are many things wrong with the prison system in America. But calling it slave labor doesn't seem accurate. Under an assumption that the individuals are guilty of the crime and that the sentencing is applicable the inmates are paying off a debt to the society that they wronged. There is plenty of room to be upset about bad sentencing guidelines and a system that wrongly convicts alongside the privatization of prisons. But slave labor is not I think an accurate summation.
      - lovich 4y ago
        >Section 1 Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. >Section 2 Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. The above is the exact text of the 13th amendment outlawing slavery. It allows for a single exception to this, allowing slave labor when it is a punishment for a convicted criminal. Calling it anything other than slave labor seems to the inaccurate description to me. I find most Americans are squeamish to call it what it is because we've developed this national narrative that slavery is one of the worst things a society can allow(which I agree with) and that we fought a war to abolish it entirely(which I do not agree with). >...the inmates are paying off a debt to the society that they wronged. The imprisonment is paying off a debt to society. If they were entirely focused on infrastructure work, I could consider it paying off a debt to society. Producing all these consumer and luxury items for sale at profit does not fit under "paying a debt to society".[1] [1]https://theweek.com/articles/463364/11-products-might-not-realize-made-by-prisoners#:~:text=Military%20jackets%20and%20battle%20garb,craft%20body%20armor%20and%20holsters https://theweek.com/articles/463364/11-products-might-not-re....
warbler73 4y ago
s1artibartfast 4y ago
>I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. Is there anything to suggest that they were actually trafficking humans? I think it is far more likely that they were illegal immigrants already in the States.
- duped 4y ago
  Their parents were legal migrant workers as far as I have read.
- lupire 4y ago
  Regardless, employing nonimmigrant children is also a crime.
Spooky23 4y ago
There’s a reason why industry likes to pursue business in places like Alabama with awful infrastructure and education. Expenses for things like conversion of documentation to pictures instead of text (the workers are functionally illiterate) are one time, but you can pay someone $13/hr instead of $25/hr in a less regressive place.
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  When I worked with some NASA engineers from Alabama, I had trouble taking them seriously due to their accent! They were the ones getting stuff done, though. Statistically, Alabama ranks significantly better than California for both child and adult literacy. Are you perhaps a bit biased in your opinion of people from the south?
  - jnwatson 4y ago
    Huntsville had the highest per capita Ph.D for a while due to operation paperclip.
  - octonion 4y ago
    Not if you include literacy in any language e.g. Spanish or English.
    - anon_123g987 4y ago
      You are shadowbanned.
      - grzm 4y ago
        They're not shadow banned: they were explicitly banned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597
        bmacho 4y ago
        OFF: But octonion just made a post, that I (and other people?) can see? I don't understand. OFF2: I wish for a functionality that could make my own post gray/collapsed, if it is offtopic. I must risk points, and being actually banned (or just don't be offtopic) this way. edit: I am just asking for some explanation about how things work, e.g. why GP said "you are shadowbanned", and what's happening, really.
dataflow 4y ago
> The children can't consent. That's essentially child slave labor. Minors can totally consent to labor; it's pretty common too (see: child actors). The issue with children working in factories is a (1) safety and (2) exploitation issue, not a consent issue—in fact even adult parents (who can presumably consent) aren't allowed to get exemptions for their children in some high-risk situations either. There are lots of exemptions for child labor though, especially in areas where safety and exploitation risks are deemed to be lower. Worth reading: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa Edit to clarify (since some people seem to be reading this different): this isn't my opinion, support, or opposition on what I believe children can or should consent to; I'm just discussing labor laws here.
- tremon 4y ago
  Can you cite the part where the law says that a minor can consent to labor? Every mention of "consent" in the link you gave only mentions "consent by the [minor's] parent or guardian" or similar phrasing.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    It's different across states. You can find a list (probably non-exhaustive) of where parental consent is required here, like the night before a school day in some states for example: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      This is the opposite of what you claimed. Can you find a single instance of a state where parental consent is not required? i.e. the child can consent for themselves as you claimed?
      - Melting_Harps 4y ago
        > This is the opposite of what you claimed. Can you find a single instance of a state where parental consent is not required? i.e. the child can consent for themselves as you claimed? Very unluikely in the US, but it also varies by Industry; when I cooked and interviewed for dishwashers/prep/line cooks I often had more than one 18 year old kid from the rural US say they had 4+ years of experience. I'd ask them to describe how that was possible and they'd cite having exemption that allowed them to begin working from 13 onward. They often had extreme poverty circumstances and were from states like Montana, Kentucky, Wyoming, Ohio or Missouri whose parent's had been disabled or injured (addiction was a big one) or something along those lines, so rather than just put them and their siblings into foster care this was the best possible solution were parent's kept custody and a child could work on school days before the age of 16 under a basic work permit. In farming it's even younger than that, the youngest I've seen being pre-K, and yes this is in the EU and in even in Switzerland. They admittedly couldn't' do much but perhaps like feed the animals or attach the the suction to the utters of a cow or sheep (both of which could easily maim their small bodies) or put seeds in a starer plant or water the plants, wrap electrical posts, harvesting fruit/veg etc... I still laugh thinking about being in a convoy of tractors heading into the the citys city center in Bern that had cows in-tow headed to the Swiss Alps and was behind a few 12 year old kids with a coupe of seasons under their belts. I come from a family of restaurateurs in CA, where it was typical to see the kids help out in the kitchen peeling/cutting vegetables, carrying products, manning a register or simply washing dishes or bussing tables at very young ages (think 10 onward) but this was high contentious and likely illegal, practice. But every time I went to my grantparents home their were hardly any pictures of my grandparents, aunts or uncles and cousins where they, even as children, weren't doing the aforementioned in at least half of their pictures. Also, it's worth noting that all of these pearl-clutching FAANG workers like to pretend their aren't minors working at Foxxcon making the iphones, or sweatshops in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc... making name brand clothing items that they wear. The sad truth is child labour laws are only applicable to those who can't afford the legal team to make it anything more than just a fine. This isn't whataboutism, but it goes to show that their is a heterodoxy when it comes to exploiting the poor and young alike in both the East and West. Sadly, I fear this will remain the norm and will likely increase in my lifetime before it gets better since things like labour laws and unions mean less as Megacorps consolidate and acquire more small businesses and increase market share.
onphonenow 4y ago
I did a paper route and opened a store before school. I loved the work - the above is crazy talk. Plenty of kids delivered papers near me. Now I make mid 6 figures. I learned a ton opening that store that has served me through life even though the actual work is totally different.
HWR_14 4y ago
> I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. I don't see where any children were "imported". Instead it seems like some 13-16 year olds got jobs. (Note, none of the children were 12). You brought up consent (which later responses delve into 'parental consent') and I have no clue what the parents thought. Still, they did violate child labor laws and should be punished. I agree with that principle. The consequences didn't seem that mild. They paid a fine of $7,000 per minor. They agreed to destroy any products the children were involved in producing. They implemented new methods to prevent this in the future. They fired the third party staffing agency that found the children (and which I would agree should have other consequences). And, far from "firing low-level managers", the president of the factory was fired.

by jmull 4y ago

irusensei 4y ago

Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for you. Its all green as long as the coal or oil burning is being done away from your borders.

danans 4y ago
> Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for you. That's been happening forever, not just the current year. Child labor sweatshops were a major source of industrial productivity for centuries the world over until relatively recently. Charles Dickens' novels turned it into an adjective in English bearing his name that described (among other things) the indifference of those in power to child labor.
- blacksqr 4y ago
  They used the term "current year" because it can be repeated verbatim any year going back forever.
  - danans 4y ago
    That's not an English idiom that I've ever heard or read before. The lack of a "the" before "current" suggests it's a translation from a language that does not make compulsory use of articles. Perhaps it's an idiom in that language.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Bracketing current year would have made it a little more comprehensible
      - danans 4y ago
        I agree. That would have changed the meaning completely.
    - anon_123g987 4y ago
      I've only ever read this on Hacker News, in the form "Welcome to $current_year!", where $ is the scalar sigil in the Perl programming language, indicating that it's a variable, and should be substituted by the reader as necessary.
    - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

inetknght 4y ago

kennywinker 4y ago
To the casual eye those are two distinct issues. Child labour is like a child protection thing, and labour protection is like a commie socialism thing. I’m no expert, but these things are historically intertwined. The fact that we even have laws against child labour is a product of 1930s labour organizing.

faeriechangling 4y ago

I‘be always wondered why kids can’t consent to work but can consent to school.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
s1artibartfast 4y ago
They don't have the choice of consenting to school or not. It is compulsory
- knaekhoved 4y ago
  That is very clearly the GP's entire point.
  - watwut 4y ago
    But it failed, because kids don't consent to school. They don't have to go to school, but the decision is completely on parents. And when parents decide to homeschool or unschool, kids have no say either.
    - knaekhoved 4y ago
      OK, so, following GPs argument, would that justify making kids work without asking them if they wanted to? The point is that allowing kids to work is clearly not as egregious as forcing them to attend prison-style schools, and yet we punish the former and support the latter.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        The whole line of argument is junk
      - watwut 4y ago
        There is no argument that you could followning from what OP said. I have never seen anyone argue that kids consent to school. It does not exist. I did heard about some homeschool parents claiming their kids wanted it that way, but even that came from homeschooled kids unhappy with that decision (meaning biased narrator and heavily self selected group). Homeschool parents I heard talking said they think it is best for kids. > forcing them to attend prison-style schools That is not true for most kids. If your parents pay for one of those camps for troubled teenagers, then it is prison like. If you commit crime then yes, your school will be prison. If you have enough behavioral issues to end up in one of those special schools, it gets closer to prison. But no, schools are not prison like for overwhelming majority of kids. Going further, majority of kids has neutral or positive attitude toward schools. Some hate it, but they are minority.

neither_color 4y ago

SL Alabama told Reuters in a statement that a staffing agency had furnished some employees to the plant who were not old enough to work there. SL said it had cooperated with regulators, terminated its relationship with the staffing firm, agreed to fines and other corrective actions, and replaced the president of the facility. It sounds like JK USA will rightfully be destroyed by this. If it really was just a handful of kids employed by a sub sub contractor I don't see why everyone in the whole factory should lose their livelihoods. The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to send their kids to a factory.

lettergram 4y ago
> The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to send their kids to a factory. I started mowing lawns at 12. Pretty heavy machinery; massive spinning blade, could lose an arm! Luckily I had that opportunity, I was able to make money and pay for clothes. Learn responsibility, self-respect, etc. I do think child labor laws are there to protect children. However, we don’t know the circumstances and I think in most cases child labor laws do more harm than good. Here are some important details: > In a separate statement on Tuesday, Alabama’s state DOL said it had levied around $35,000 in total in civil penalties on SL Alabama and JK USA, a temporary labor recruiting firm. JK USA employed five minors between the ages of 13 and 16 at the plant, the state DOL said. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supplier-alabama-fined-child-labor-violations-2022-10-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supp... To me, it could be as simple as a few guys brought their kids who wanted to make an extra buck. They could have just been picking up metal scraps. We don’t know. What I can say is in high school I knew multiple people whos family worked in metal works and the kids would help out and get paid. Some kids were as young as 10, but everyone was safe and it appeared to be in everyone’s interest
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Most sane countries in the world allow adolescents to work some time when school is not on or when doing an apprenticeship. Most don’t legally consider a kid mowing lawns for a stipend labour. There is a pretty major difference between that and doing work for an auto supplier while being staffed by a temp agency.

emodendroket 4y ago

I read an article in the New York Times maybe around ten years ago where some researchers called some labor departments to report child labor (it wasn't actually happening that they knew of; the point was to see how they would respond). They were basically uninterested and didn't follow up. In short, I'm less surprised but it is appalling.

sammalloy 4y ago
This is apparently a common response. Check out Reveal’s major investigative series on the punitive and profit-driven rehab industry which depends on unpaid labor. The government has done virtually nothing about it for 50 years. https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/ https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/
hammock 4y ago
Unless there is enough behind it to become a viral news story (a photo, video, a document) there is little incentive for these authorities to act. For this reason, ensuring the freedom of whistleblowers, Wikileaks and others is so important. Without that, it becomes much easier for the authorities - which we trust our rights to - to do nothing and get away with it
lupire 4y ago
Government only cares about crime against wealthy property owners.
- treeman79 4y ago
  California, Oregon, Illinois clearly do not. As businesses are fleeing in droves.

legitster 4y ago

Part of the problem is that if the DOL goes after every underage worker in the economy, the biggest offenders by far would be family businesses and restaurants. It's all well and good to make parents send their kids to school. But at a certain point the punishments can exacerbate child poverty.

lovich 4y ago
Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it’s outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction into working for children instead of a hard line at 18. What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate child poverty
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  > Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it’s outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction into working for children instead of a hard line at 18. Fun fact, tax breaks encourage this as long as you report the income, then some of the parents' income can be offset by the income that the child "earns" as that is tax deductible. Of course this is not financial advice and consult your own tax professional. > What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate child poverty Much of the labor lately in grocery and fast food has been underage or young workers.

lovich 4y ago

We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] and farm labor for 13 year olds. That’s not to defend this practice but to point out it’s not as big an ethical leap for someone already observing situations close to this and rationalizing it as just pushing the envelope a bit in their mind. [1]see the text of the 13th amendment and how private prisons operate if you are one of the 10000 today whose just learning this

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lostlogin 4y ago
> We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] Also see prison labour.
- lovich 4y ago
  That is what I am referencing. As far as legal slave labor in the Us is concerned, it requires it being punishment for breaking the law
  - zaphar 4y ago
    I think there are many things wrong with the prison system in America. But calling it slave labor doesn't seem accurate. Under an assumption that the individuals are guilty of the crime and that the sentencing is applicable the inmates are paying off a debt to the society that they wronged. There is plenty of room to be upset about bad sentencing guidelines and a system that wrongly convicts alongside the privatization of prisons. But slave labor is not I think an accurate summation.
    - lovich 4y ago
      >Section 1 Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. >Section 2 Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. The above is the exact text of the 13th amendment outlawing slavery. It allows for a single exception to this, allowing slave labor when it is a punishment for a convicted criminal. Calling it anything other than slave labor seems to the inaccurate description to me. I find most Americans are squeamish to call it what it is because we've developed this national narrative that slavery is one of the worst things a society can allow(which I agree with) and that we fought a war to abolish it entirely(which I do not agree with). >...the inmates are paying off a debt to the society that they wronged. The imprisonment is paying off a debt to society. If they were entirely focused on infrastructure work, I could consider it paying off a debt to society. Producing all these consumer and luxury items for sale at profit does not fit under "paying a debt to society".[1] [1]https://theweek.com/articles/463364/11-products-might-not-realize-made-by-prisoners#:~:text=Military%20jackets%20and%20battle%20garb,craft%20body%20armor%20and%20holsters https://theweek.com/articles/463364/11-products-might-not-re....

warbler73 4y ago

s1artibartfast 4y ago

>I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. Is there anything to suggest that they were actually trafficking humans? I think it is far more likely that they were illegal immigrants already in the States.

duped 4y ago
Their parents were legal migrant workers as far as I have read.
lupire 4y ago
Regardless, employing nonimmigrant children is also a crime.

Spooky23 4y ago

There’s a reason why industry likes to pursue business in places like Alabama with awful infrastructure and education. Expenses for things like conversion of documentation to pictures instead of text (the workers are functionally illiterate) are one time, but you can pay someone $13/hr instead of $25/hr in a less regressive place.

sgtnoodle 4y ago
When I worked with some NASA engineers from Alabama, I had trouble taking them seriously due to their accent! They were the ones getting stuff done, though. Statistically, Alabama ranks significantly better than California for both child and adult literacy. Are you perhaps a bit biased in your opinion of people from the south?
- jnwatson 4y ago
  Huntsville had the highest per capita Ph.D for a while due to operation paperclip.
- octonion 4y ago
  Not if you include literacy in any language e.g. Spanish or English.
  - anon_123g987 4y ago
    You are shadowbanned.
    - grzm 4y ago
      They're not shadow banned: they were explicitly banned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597
      - bmacho 4y ago
        OFF: But octonion just made a post, that I (and other people?) can see? I don't understand. OFF2: I wish for a functionality that could make my own post gray/collapsed, if it is offtopic. I must risk points, and being actually banned (or just don't be offtopic) this way. edit: I am just asking for some explanation about how things work, e.g. why GP said "you are shadowbanned", and what's happening, really.

dataflow 4y ago

> The children can't consent. That's essentially child slave labor. Minors can totally consent to labor; it's pretty common too (see: child actors). The issue with children working in factories is a (1) safety and (2) exploitation issue, not a consent issue—in fact even adult parents (who can presumably consent) aren't allowed to get exemptions for their children in some high-risk situations either. There are lots of exemptions for child labor though, especially in areas where safety and exploitation risks are deemed to be lower. Worth reading: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa Edit to clarify (since some people seem to be reading this different): this isn't my opinion, support, or opposition on what I believe children can or should consent to; I'm just discussing labor laws here.

tremon 4y ago
Can you cite the part where the law says that a minor can consent to labor? Every mention of "consent" in the link you gave only mentions "consent by the [minor's] parent or guardian" or similar phrasing.
- dataflow 4y ago
  It's different across states. You can find a list (probably non-exhaustive) of where parental consent is required here, like the night before a school day in some states for example: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    This is the opposite of what you claimed. Can you find a single instance of a state where parental consent is not required? i.e. the child can consent for themselves as you claimed?
    - Melting_Harps 4y ago
      > This is the opposite of what you claimed. Can you find a single instance of a state where parental consent is not required? i.e. the child can consent for themselves as you claimed? Very unluikely in the US, but it also varies by Industry; when I cooked and interviewed for dishwashers/prep/line cooks I often had more than one 18 year old kid from the rural US say they had 4+ years of experience. I'd ask them to describe how that was possible and they'd cite having exemption that allowed them to begin working from 13 onward. They often had extreme poverty circumstances and were from states like Montana, Kentucky, Wyoming, Ohio or Missouri whose parent's had been disabled or injured (addiction was a big one) or something along those lines, so rather than just put them and their siblings into foster care this was the best possible solution were parent's kept custody and a child could work on school days before the age of 16 under a basic work permit. In farming it's even younger than that, the youngest I've seen being pre-K, and yes this is in the EU and in even in Switzerland. They admittedly couldn't' do much but perhaps like feed the animals or attach the the suction to the utters of a cow or sheep (both of which could easily maim their small bodies) or put seeds in a starer plant or water the plants, wrap electrical posts, harvesting fruit/veg etc... I still laugh thinking about being in a convoy of tractors heading into the the citys city center in Bern that had cows in-tow headed to the Swiss Alps and was behind a few 12 year old kids with a coupe of seasons under their belts. I come from a family of restaurateurs in CA, where it was typical to see the kids help out in the kitchen peeling/cutting vegetables, carrying products, manning a register or simply washing dishes or bussing tables at very young ages (think 10 onward) but this was high contentious and likely illegal, practice. But every time I went to my grantparents home their were hardly any pictures of my grandparents, aunts or uncles and cousins where they, even as children, weren't doing the aforementioned in at least half of their pictures. Also, it's worth noting that all of these pearl-clutching FAANG workers like to pretend their aren't minors working at Foxxcon making the iphones, or sweatshops in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc... making name brand clothing items that they wear. The sad truth is child labour laws are only applicable to those who can't afford the legal team to make it anything more than just a fine. This isn't whataboutism, but it goes to show that their is a heterodoxy when it comes to exploiting the poor and young alike in both the East and West. Sadly, I fear this will remain the norm and will likely increase in my lifetime before it gets better since things like labour laws and unions mean less as Megacorps consolidate and acquire more small businesses and increase market share.

onphonenow 4y ago

I did a paper route and opened a store before school. I loved the work - the above is crazy talk. Plenty of kids delivered papers near me. Now I make mid 6 figures. I learned a ton opening that store that has served me through life even though the actual work is totally different.

HWR_14 4y ago

> I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. I don't see where any children were "imported". Instead it seems like some 13-16 year olds got jobs. (Note, none of the children were 12). You brought up consent (which later responses delve into 'parental consent') and I have no clue what the parents thought. Still, they did violate child labor laws and should be punished. I agree with that principle. The consequences didn't seem that mild. They paid a fine of $7,000 per minor. They agreed to destroy any products the children were involved in producing. They implemented new methods to prevent this in the future. They fired the third party staffing agency that found the children (and which I would agree should have other consequences). And, far from "firing low-level managers", the president of the factory was fired.