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> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The conservative

by JadeNB 4y ago

> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The conservative groundswell is because generations of conservatives have already been getting elected, especially in less flashy positions that wield influence. Conservatives have really played the long game, at least since the New Deal.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
D13Fd 4y ago
I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I agree, I think it blinds people to the sort of problem that user macrolocal mentions in a nearby comment, rising illiberalism among both 'liberals' (more accurately called progressives, but this terminology is all twisted in America..) and conservatives. I'm concerned that both use the other to justify or rationalize their own declining liberalism.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  I think many things can be framed as "change things" or "leave them".
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    "change things" vs "change things but ostensibly back to the way they were before". For instance, ruling against Roe v. Wade. Regardless of what you think of that, it, such a ruling was a deviation from the status quo. It was "changing things" as surely as the original ruling changed things.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Sure, or "we made a mistake changing things, let's put them back". It just depends on the timescales you consider when determining the status quo.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Putting things back where they were depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect and subject to various biases and confusion with myth. But even ignoring that, the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past so past laws won't work the same in the present as they did in the past. Even if you could perfectly replicate past laws in the present, you couldn't get the same effect out of those laws because the inputs (the state of society) have changed. Nobody can roll back the clock. What conservatives actually do in fact is propose ways to change things going into the future.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
        > depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect We do have pretty good records to help us sort it out, especially for recent history. > the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past Surely some circumstances, such as human nature and social biology, have not changed. I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction.
        MichaelCollins 4y ago
        > I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction. I think it is, since there is great cultural variation in the ways humans think about violence and sex. Monogamy or harems; human sacrifice or the abolition of the death penalty. Any combination of these can be "normal" to people raised in that context, there is little which is fundamental about the way human societies are structured with respect to these subjects.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    I think that is mostly imagined. Lots of “conservative” positions involve deep societal change and lots of “liberal” policies maintain the status quo. The reverse is true as well.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      I think you're conflating (US) "Republican" and "Democrat" with "liberal" and "conservative". Most dictionaries define "conservative" in contradiction to your comment.
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics. I don't know if that was addressed to me for speaking of conservative political movements or to the conservatives, but it is not a label that I pin on an unwilling recipient; I am referring to a self-described conservative movement.
- themitigating 4y ago
  You know what trick I love? When someone points out something Democrats did and they say "that's why I'm conservative" then when you point out something Republicans did they say "We need more than two parties"
- tomatotomato37 4y ago
  Yes, I agree. It's like sports teams now, where people cheer on whoever has the correct letter next to their name rather than bases on their actual personal policies or beliefs. It's also resulted in an effect I've noticed in most debates now where people just shout the advantages of their position and the disadvantages of their opponents position at each other without any attempt at addressing what their opponent is counter-arguing, if that makes sense.

by JadeNB 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

D13Fd 4y ago

I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
I agree, I think it blinds people to the sort of problem that user macrolocal mentions in a nearby comment, rising illiberalism among both 'liberals' (more accurately called progressives, but this terminology is all twisted in America..) and conservatives. I'm concerned that both use the other to justify or rationalize their own declining liberalism.
thegrimmest 4y ago
I think many things can be framed as "change things" or "leave them".
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  "change things" vs "change things but ostensibly back to the way they were before". For instance, ruling against Roe v. Wade. Regardless of what you think of that, it, such a ruling was a deviation from the status quo. It was "changing things" as surely as the original ruling changed things.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Sure, or "we made a mistake changing things, let's put them back". It just depends on the timescales you consider when determining the status quo.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Putting things back where they were depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect and subject to various biases and confusion with myth. But even ignoring that, the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past so past laws won't work the same in the present as they did in the past. Even if you could perfectly replicate past laws in the present, you couldn't get the same effect out of those laws because the inputs (the state of society) have changed. Nobody can roll back the clock. What conservatives actually do in fact is propose ways to change things going into the future.
      - thegrimmest 4y ago
        > depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect We do have pretty good records to help us sort it out, especially for recent history. > the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past Surely some circumstances, such as human nature and social biology, have not changed. I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction.
        MichaelCollins 4y ago
        > I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction. I think it is, since there is great cultural variation in the ways humans think about violence and sex. Monogamy or harems; human sacrifice or the abolition of the death penalty. Any combination of these can be "normal" to people raised in that context, there is little which is fundamental about the way human societies are structured with respect to these subjects.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  I think that is mostly imagined. Lots of “conservative” positions involve deep societal change and lots of “liberal” policies maintain the status quo. The reverse is true as well.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    I think you're conflating (US) "Republican" and "Democrat" with "liberal" and "conservative". Most dictionaries define "conservative" in contradiction to your comment.
JadeNB 4y ago
> I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics. I don't know if that was addressed to me for speaking of conservative political movements or to the conservatives, but it is not a label that I pin on an unwilling recipient; I am referring to a self-described conservative movement.
themitigating 4y ago
You know what trick I love? When someone points out something Democrats did and they say "that's why I'm conservative" then when you point out something Republicans did they say "We need more than two parties"
tomatotomato37 4y ago
Yes, I agree. It's like sports teams now, where people cheer on whoever has the correct letter next to their name rather than bases on their actual personal policies or beliefs. It's also resulted in an effect I've noticed in most debates now where people just shout the advantages of their position and the disadvantages of their opponents position at each other without any attempt at addressing what their opponent is counter-arguing, if that makes sense.