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Shaping the ethnic demographic of the school is a big component of the modern intent as well. Particularly, these "holistic" admission standards are designed

Shaping the ethnic demographic of the school is a big component of the modern intent as well. Particularly, these "holistic" admission standards are designed to facilitate discrimination against Asian Americans. This is justified with transparently racist bullshit claims about Asian American students being too focused on academic performance, not "well rounded" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. They reduce Asian American students to the stereotype of dull people with no personality because they spent too much time doing homework and learning piano, and use this stereotype to justify discriminating against them. Flagrantly racist.

nerdponx 4y ago
A more charitable interpretation is that a student body made up of too much of any one thing is not good. Part of the value proposition for going away to university for four years is to spend that time surrounded by diverse and interesting people. That doesn't excuse the actual racism that we've seen in admissions, of course.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  In that case, maybe some universities could specialize on having racially diverse student bodies, and others on other attributes (say, political diversity, or something completely different). This way, everyone could choose their preferred institution according to their wishes and values.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > A more charitable interpretation is that a student body made up of too much of any one thing is not good. So what would you say is “not good” about a “student body made up of too [many]” Indians? Or Jews? Or Chinese people? Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race?
  - csa 4y ago
    > Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race? Both China and India are countries with a number of different races, some/most of which are represented at the top schools (I imagine all of the large racial groups). I’m not sure about Israel, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true there as well. That said, the prestigious schools in these countries (not sure about Israel) heavily use tests as an admission standard to the best schools. I think that this is part of what makes them less prestigious than their American counterparts. Elite American universities use social capital as part the admissions criteria, with a reasonably broad definition of social capital. I think that this social capital along with intellectual capital (not always in the same student) is part of what makes the magic work at these schools. Notes: - In China (and probably other places), historically the admissions exam was a proxy for social capital, since families with high social capital could prepare their kids better via tutors. This is still somewhat true today, but it’s not as powerful as it was in the distant past. - State schools in the US, which seem to be the focus of this article since they don’t have a history of holistic admissions, should probably stick with a grades-test score combo for most admissions, and maybe add some “social capital” admits (similar to athletes, who also fall into the social capital category, with the extent of exceptionalism required being equivalent). - Schools that admit based on tests alone without having some sort of built-in social capital component will end up defaulting towards the creation of a lot of middle management drones rather than future leaders of the country. Many people seem to wish that social capital is not the primary driver of success, but results (historical and anecdotal) seem to suggest otherwise.
    - known 4y ago
- rajin444 4y ago
  There’s infinite ways you can define diversity. Choosing to define it in the way you’re referring to (skin color, sex, sexual orientation) is just discrimination. Colleges should be about furthering academic knowledge and preparing our best and brightest to make the world a better place. Diversity for diversities sake harms that.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Believe parent's point was that "spend[ing] that time surrounded by diverse and interesting people" is an effective way of "preparing our best and brightest to make the world a better place".
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      But since when is superficial appearance the primary measure of "diversity"?
      - ethbr0 4y ago
        "Skin color, sex, sexual orientation" all drastically impact an individual's experience in our world. Therefore, having interactions with someone with different varieties thereof increases the diversity of ones experience.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
        More so than economic, cultural, geographic or domestic factors? Do you have a citation?
        ethbr0 4y ago
        Sure, if you can give me ones supporting your preferred measures.
  - britch 4y ago
    It sounds simple, but it's difficult to do Who are the best and brightest? How do you determine that? Do the best&brightest from one community or circumstance always have the same traits as the best&brightest from another community or circumstance? My understanding is diversity initiatives attempt to address the latter part (effective or not).
- the_lonely_road 4y ago
  By that logic if it’s okay for 60% of the student body to be white because 60% of the United States is white then you are explicitly saying it’s okay for the university to be 60% of the same race which means it should be equally acceptable for the university to be 60% Asian regardless of them being x% of the United States and merit based admittance should be acceptable. The only logical reason for discriminating against so many Asians in our current setup needs to be attempting to mirror the population statistics of the United States. I don’t approve of that logic to be clear and think the universities will be issuing apologies to the Asian American community in X years similar to the ones they just made to the Jewish American community recently.
- mook 4y ago
  In that case shouldn't they also diversify the administration, and say that the university president should be Asian (or Black or Hispanic) x% of the time?
- wincy 4y ago
  I don’t know, universities in Israel seem to keep magically pumping out geniuses that invent all sorts of incredible technologies despite not being particularly diverse.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    Israel does not exactly set the PISA on fire, what they do do is delay college until after military service
petilon 4y ago
At UW they call it "race equity" [1]. Meaning that you can't have more than x% of Asian Americans in the UW if the percentage of Asian Americans in the community is x%. The Supreme Court will soon decide if this practice is legal [2], and it is going to be interesting either way! [1] https://www.washington.edu/raceequity/ https://www.washington.edu/raceequity/ [2] https://edsource.org/2022/as-supreme-court-considers-affirmative-action-case-university-of-california-offers-cautionary-tale/679692 https://edsource.org/2022/as-supreme-court-considers-affirma...
- 0x445442 4y ago
  And yet somehow they never decry the race inequity of lucrative ventures like the NBA player pool.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Arguably there you have an exterior reliable measurement of ability (and if there was inappropriate discrimination against Asian basketball players, you should expect a team to realize it and get a winning team for cheaper).
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      But somehow we can't have an exterior reliable measurement of intellectual ability? And have no controversy testing for it across ethnic groups? Oh wait..
    - 0x445442 4y ago
      Of course there is objective measures, that’s the point. And it’s why no sane person thinks the race inequity within the NBA player pool is a problem. The problem lies in the hypocrisy of crying about systemic racism or sexism as the reason for inequity when talking about college admissions or C level jobs but never talking about the same inequities in nursing or iron workers or NBA players.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  Here's a question to those in control of these so-called "equity" rules at UW: do these also go for e.g. sex? In other words, if the percentage of women in the population is 49% there can not be more than 49% female students? If not, why not? The answer is already clear of course given the data but it would be interesting to hear their defence of their untenable position.
rayiner 4y ago
The idea of a “well rounded student” reflects the WASP roots of these elite institutions. The ideal “Harvard man” was a well bred WASP who didn’t appear to try too hard (which would be unseemly) and balanced academic pursuits with sports and social activities accessible to people who had connections and didn’t work for a living. That’s who you wanted running your Wall Street banks, corporations, etc. Holistic admissions is just the modern incarnation of that.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  In slight defense, if you must hand the keys to the kingdom (or a substantial amount of power) to one person, you can do worse than putting them through a battery of enculturation that reduces their inclination to abuse it. And an effective part of that litmus test could be 'already has substantial power, but is able to self-restrain their abuse of it.' Caligula vs the recent British monarchy, etc.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Is there any evidence that Harvard educated politicians or business leaders behave more ethically than their peers from less prestigious schools?
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=%22socioeconomic+background%22+embezzlement https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=%22...

nerdponx 4y ago

A more charitable interpretation is that a student body made up of too much of any one thing is not good. Part of the value proposition for going away to university for four years is to spend that time surrounded by diverse and interesting people. That doesn't excuse the actual racism that we've seen in admissions, of course.

inglor_cz 4y ago
In that case, maybe some universities could specialize on having racially diverse student bodies, and others on other attributes (say, political diversity, or something completely different). This way, everyone could choose their preferred institution according to their wishes and values.
rayiner 4y ago
> A more charitable interpretation is that a student body made up of too much of any one thing is not good. So what would you say is “not good” about a “student body made up of too [many]” Indians? Or Jews? Or Chinese people? Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race?
- csa 4y ago
  > Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race? Both China and India are countries with a number of different races, some/most of which are represented at the top schools (I imagine all of the large racial groups). I’m not sure about Israel, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true there as well. That said, the prestigious schools in these countries (not sure about Israel) heavily use tests as an admission standard to the best schools. I think that this is part of what makes them less prestigious than their American counterparts. Elite American universities use social capital as part the admissions criteria, with a reasonably broad definition of social capital. I think that this social capital along with intellectual capital (not always in the same student) is part of what makes the magic work at these schools. Notes: - In China (and probably other places), historically the admissions exam was a proxy for social capital, since families with high social capital could prepare their kids better via tutors. This is still somewhat true today, but it’s not as powerful as it was in the distant past. - State schools in the US, which seem to be the focus of this article since they don’t have a history of holistic admissions, should probably stick with a grades-test score combo for most admissions, and maybe add some “social capital” admits (similar to athletes, who also fall into the social capital category, with the extent of exceptionalism required being equivalent). - Schools that admit based on tests alone without having some sort of built-in social capital component will end up defaulting towards the creation of a lot of middle management drones rather than future leaders of the country. Many people seem to wish that social capital is not the primary driver of success, but results (historical and anecdotal) seem to suggest otherwise.
  - known 4y ago
rajin444 4y ago
There’s infinite ways you can define diversity. Choosing to define it in the way you’re referring to (skin color, sex, sexual orientation) is just discrimination. Colleges should be about furthering academic knowledge and preparing our best and brightest to make the world a better place. Diversity for diversities sake harms that.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Believe parent's point was that "spend[ing] that time surrounded by diverse and interesting people" is an effective way of "preparing our best and brightest to make the world a better place".
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    But since when is superficial appearance the primary measure of "diversity"?
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      "Skin color, sex, sexual orientation" all drastically impact an individual's experience in our world. Therefore, having interactions with someone with different varieties thereof increases the diversity of ones experience.
      - thegrimmest 4y ago
        More so than economic, cultural, geographic or domestic factors? Do you have a citation?
        ethbr0 4y ago
        Sure, if you can give me ones supporting your preferred measures.
- britch 4y ago
  It sounds simple, but it's difficult to do Who are the best and brightest? How do you determine that? Do the best&brightest from one community or circumstance always have the same traits as the best&brightest from another community or circumstance? My understanding is diversity initiatives attempt to address the latter part (effective or not).
the_lonely_road 4y ago
By that logic if it’s okay for 60% of the student body to be white because 60% of the United States is white then you are explicitly saying it’s okay for the university to be 60% of the same race which means it should be equally acceptable for the university to be 60% Asian regardless of them being x% of the United States and merit based admittance should be acceptable. The only logical reason for discriminating against so many Asians in our current setup needs to be attempting to mirror the population statistics of the United States. I don’t approve of that logic to be clear and think the universities will be issuing apologies to the Asian American community in X years similar to the ones they just made to the Jewish American community recently.
mook 4y ago
In that case shouldn't they also diversify the administration, and say that the university president should be Asian (or Black or Hispanic) x% of the time?
wincy 4y ago
I don’t know, universities in Israel seem to keep magically pumping out geniuses that invent all sorts of incredible technologies despite not being particularly diverse.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Israel does not exactly set the PISA on fire, what they do do is delay college until after military service

petilon 4y ago

At UW they call it "race equity" [1]. Meaning that you can't have more than x% of Asian Americans in the UW if the percentage of Asian Americans in the community is x%. The Supreme Court will soon decide if this practice is legal [2], and it is going to be interesting either way! [1] https://www.washington.edu/raceequity/ https://www.washington.edu/raceequity/ [2] https://edsource.org/2022/as-supreme-court-considers-affirmative-action-case-university-of-california-offers-cautionary-tale/679692 https://edsource.org/2022/as-supreme-court-considers-affirma...

0x445442 4y ago
And yet somehow they never decry the race inequity of lucrative ventures like the NBA player pool.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Arguably there you have an exterior reliable measurement of ability (and if there was inappropriate discrimination against Asian basketball players, you should expect a team to realize it and get a winning team for cheaper).
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    But somehow we can't have an exterior reliable measurement of intellectual ability? And have no controversy testing for it across ethnic groups? Oh wait..
  - 0x445442 4y ago
    Of course there is objective measures, that’s the point. And it’s why no sane person thinks the race inequity within the NBA player pool is a problem. The problem lies in the hypocrisy of crying about systemic racism or sexism as the reason for inequity when talking about college admissions or C level jobs but never talking about the same inequities in nursing or iron workers or NBA players.
the_third_wave 4y ago
Here's a question to those in control of these so-called "equity" rules at UW: do these also go for e.g. sex? In other words, if the percentage of women in the population is 49% there can not be more than 49% female students? If not, why not? The answer is already clear of course given the data but it would be interesting to hear their defence of their untenable position.

rayiner 4y ago

The idea of a “well rounded student” reflects the WASP roots of these elite institutions. The ideal “Harvard man” was a well bred WASP who didn’t appear to try too hard (which would be unseemly) and balanced academic pursuits with sports and social activities accessible to people who had connections and didn’t work for a living. That’s who you wanted running your Wall Street banks, corporations, etc. Holistic admissions is just the modern incarnation of that.

ethbr0 4y ago
In slight defense, if you must hand the keys to the kingdom (or a substantial amount of power) to one person, you can do worse than putting them through a battery of enculturation that reduces their inclination to abuse it. And an effective part of that litmus test could be 'already has substantial power, but is able to self-restrain their abuse of it.' Caligula vs the recent British monarchy, etc.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Is there any evidence that Harvard educated politicians or business leaders behave more ethically than their peers from less prestigious schools?
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=%22socioeconomic+background%22+embezzlement https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&q=%22...