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I really used to buy into this mental model. There are certainly some points that seem to correspond to my lived experience. At this point though, I've been th

by tomrod 4y ago

I really used to buy into this mental model. There are certainly some points that seem to correspond to my lived experience. At this point though, I've been through each of the tiers and have never been either cluelessly obsequious nor a sociopath -- so I have my doubts that the model is worthwhile despite being a good laugh! For those that haven't read it: - Tier 1 - fresh younguns or burnt out talented people who are there for a check (there is a lot of discussion regarding this tier). GOT reference: Sam Tulley - Tier 2 - middle managers -- clueless, "true believer" types. GOT reference: many! Eddard Stark, Tommen Lannister, Jaime Lannister - Tier 3 - sociopaths: bosses at the top of the hierarchy. GOT reference: Tywin Lannister, Joffrey Lannister

k__ 4y ago
I'd buy into the model, but I think it misses a few things. A sociopath doesn't have to be successful. Alpha losers might think of them as sociopaths. And people move back and forth between the roles. Besides that, it's certainly a more complete model than the alpha/beta/omega one.
- kqr 4y ago
  TFA does give an example of an unsuccessful sociopath. There are far more sociopaths than there are positions of success.
b3morales 4y ago
Joffrey was a Clueless if ever there was one. He had no grasp of strategy, no skill at manipulation, no understanding of how to present himself. His mother on the other hand was a Sociopath's Sociopath.
- tomrod 4y ago
  I agree that he was clueless. He was also a sociopath and nominally in charge, though not by his own choice. A patsy set up to fail. And I 100% agree on Cersei.
  - theptip 4y ago
    I think it’s important to distinguish DSM Sociopath (Joffrey) from Gervais Principle Sociopath (Cersei). Both abbreviate to “sociopath” but they are very different concepts. I don’t think Joffrey qualifies as a GP Sociopath at all, as GP notes. While he was “in charge” he didn’t play the GP Sociopath game, and so was quickly removed. As the OP notes it’s possible for Clueless to be placed in positions of power in plenty of cases, for example when a fall guy is needed, or a puppet. So just wearing the crown doesn’t mean he MUST be a GP Sociopath.
    - karpierz 4y ago
      This scene really highlights the difference between the Clueless (Joffrey) and the Sociopath (Tywin): https://youtu.be/BM6kMHH-G64 https://youtu.be/BM6kMHH-G64
nostrademons 4y ago
Also: Losers: Aemon Targaryen, Catelyn Tully, Hot Pie, pre-Braavos Arya Stark, Hodor, most of the Freys, the random Lannister soldiers led by Ed Sheeran's character in S08E01. Clueless: Brienne Tarly, Jon Snow, Rob Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen Sociopaths: Olenna Tyrell, Varys, Cersei Lannister, Bran Stark, post-Braavos Arya Stark The non-Lannister Sociopaths are in many ways more interesting, because they are more subtle about their will to power and hence more effective. Bran in particular - with his Greensight and warging abilities, he has the ability to influence events basically at will, but he's also physically crippled and dependent upon others for action. And note that when asked if he would accept the crown (not take it), he simply says "Why do you think I came all this way?".

by tomrod 4y ago

k__ 4y ago

I'd buy into the model, but I think it misses a few things. A sociopath doesn't have to be successful. Alpha losers might think of them as sociopaths. And people move back and forth between the roles. Besides that, it's certainly a more complete model than the alpha/beta/omega one.

kqr 4y ago
TFA does give an example of an unsuccessful sociopath. There are far more sociopaths than there are positions of success.

b3morales 4y ago

Joffrey was a Clueless if ever there was one. He had no grasp of strategy, no skill at manipulation, no understanding of how to present himself. His mother on the other hand was a Sociopath's Sociopath.

tomrod 4y ago
I agree that he was clueless. He was also a sociopath and nominally in charge, though not by his own choice. A patsy set up to fail. And I 100% agree on Cersei.
- theptip 4y ago
  I think it’s important to distinguish DSM Sociopath (Joffrey) from Gervais Principle Sociopath (Cersei). Both abbreviate to “sociopath” but they are very different concepts. I don’t think Joffrey qualifies as a GP Sociopath at all, as GP notes. While he was “in charge” he didn’t play the GP Sociopath game, and so was quickly removed. As the OP notes it’s possible for Clueless to be placed in positions of power in plenty of cases, for example when a fall guy is needed, or a puppet. So just wearing the crown doesn’t mean he MUST be a GP Sociopath.
  - karpierz 4y ago
    This scene really highlights the difference between the Clueless (Joffrey) and the Sociopath (Tywin): https://youtu.be/BM6kMHH-G64 https://youtu.be/BM6kMHH-G64

nostrademons 4y ago

Also: Losers: Aemon Targaryen, Catelyn Tully, Hot Pie, pre-Braavos Arya Stark, Hodor, most of the Freys, the random Lannister soldiers led by Ed Sheeran's character in S08E01. Clueless: Brienne Tarly, Jon Snow, Rob Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen Sociopaths: Olenna Tyrell, Varys, Cersei Lannister, Bran Stark, post-Braavos Arya Stark The non-Lannister Sociopaths are in many ways more interesting, because they are more subtle about their will to power and hence more effective. Bran in particular - with his Greensight and warging abilities, he has the ability to influence events basically at will, but he's also physically crippled and dependent upon others for action. And note that when asked if he would accept the crown (not take it), he simply says "Why do you think I came all this way?".