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That’s exactly the whole point of this work: that too much effort is spent developing new widgets instead of figuring out why governance or society is not deliv

That’s exactly the whole point of this work: that too much effort is spent developing new widgets instead of figuring out why governance or society is not delivering peoples needs and what to do about it. This needs interdisciplinary approaches that are not tech focused.

tomrod 4y ago
Sanitation: shovels, pipes, and pumps Clean water access: shovels, pipes, pumps, treatment processes Food: roads, shovels, pipes, pumps, transportation No interdisciplinary approaches needed. Resources, rule of law (so builders don't abscond with funds), a tidbit of path planning, and Bob's your Uncle. Lower the costs and mitigate the risks.
- runnig 4y ago
  Shovels, pipes and pumps are the common denominator in these
- jerojero 4y ago
  If it was as simple as you're painting it then it wouldn't be a problem. The fact that it is a problem should indicate to you that there are factors you might not be considering. For example, the logistics to provide plumbing to developing nations are extremely difficult because of the instability of these regions as well as the lack of cooperation from developed nations to precisely help in these much needed regards. A lot of the help these places get come in the form of philanthropic pursuit or misguided help that end up either not helping or sometimes worsening the situation. Not only that, but there are many interests at play that also get in the way of these places developing. For many powerful actors in these countries the status quo is good enough and any form of development actually threatens their position. And yes, sadly, this applies to plumbing as well! It's very true that we know how to do plumbing, in the technical sense, but in reality we don't know how to do plumbing in these regions because our technical knowledge is not applicable given the socio-political situation. So this does require an interdisciplinary approach, one that involves sociology, psychology, economics, politics, etc.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Fascinating that political sociology invalidates known plumbing technology.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    You covered exactly what I said, with more words, until making the claim that an interdisciplinary approach is required. "Interdisciplinary approach" means we need to research the problem space. The research is already done. The solutions are ready and exist. Its the implementation that people get squeamish on for fear of offending portions of the coalition in power. Their squeamishness doesn't justify delaying action, which is what your approach advocates by casting solutioneering as requiring additional raw research versus applying what is known. Pipes, shovels, and pumps solve a lot of core problems for a community. Where and how they get laid down doesn't require sociology or political economy research. You might care about the people displaced by the infrastructure, which a compassionate person will, but don't forget that home construction and legal recompense for eminent domain are also known. The major difference between your and my approaches: while the interdisciplinarists are arguing about the impact of infrastructure development on endangered plants and relative value of indigenous pottery buried for several thousand years, the pragmatists are getting people out of the bondage of poverty and enabling them solve their problems themselves because they have risen above subsistence. Note there is value to ensuring the endangered plants are maintained and the indigenous pottery is studied -- as well as the knowledge gained from all fields that might come to an interdisciplinarists table -- but one must recognize the advancement of patron-funded knowledge is a bottleneck when it stands in the way of well-understood solutions.
    - tbrownaw 4y ago
      > Its the implementation that people get squeamish on for fear of offending portions of the coalition in power. Their squeamishness doesn't justify delaying action, And that action that's totally appropriate but people are just too squeamish for would be ... what, an armed invasion to impose "better" cultural values?
      - 4y ago
jotm 4y ago
No, we know why: the people. The governments, the culture/desires. And I don't mean only Africa or Asia, (before someone calls me racist). Any country has had this problem. The simplest solution is to instate mandatory community service, preferably in lieu of military service, but it could be a sort of "Subotnik" as seen in the USSR, which would be used for... You guessed it, doing community/public service work. Then you have all the manpower and just need food (some compensation/thanks is good) tools and organization/training (can double as job training). Not much to ask imo, but of course many people will cry about it. Mostly people from countries with a lot of homeless and unpaid internships, but it's not like most people want to do unpaid work much, either. On the bright side, most people won't raise much of a fuss about it, either. So that's not happening. Government officials stealing foreign aid is happening. Local production is not happening. Wars are happening. Toilets are not. Etc.
- concordDance 4y ago
  How exactly does time limited slavery help with the culture? What stops this labour being used in corrupt or self serving fashions just as the money is?
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    This is an interesting question. The ancient Incan Empire collected taxes in labor (basically part-time slavery, everyone had to do their 2 months a year or so), and they managed to build enormous infrastructure across the Andes in just a few decades. And in high quality. Many of the roads can still be seen, 500 years after they were built. How did they prevent capture of this labor by corrupt local officials? I don't know.
  - jotm 4y ago
    Slavery, fucking L. There are villages without proper taxation or any public services. Paying in labour works as an alternative. What stops anyone from using a kitchen knife to stab someone to death? If you look at it that way, you'll get nothing done.
colechristensen 4y ago
Ivory tower musing about why poor countries are corrupt and disorganized is not the key missing activity blocking them from prosperity. The countries which are not poor and disorganized did not get there through the benevolent study by their betters.

tomrod 4y ago

Sanitation: shovels, pipes, and pumps Clean water access: shovels, pipes, pumps, treatment processes Food: roads, shovels, pipes, pumps, transportation No interdisciplinary approaches needed. Resources, rule of law (so builders don't abscond with funds), a tidbit of path planning, and Bob's your Uncle. Lower the costs and mitigate the risks.

runnig 4y ago
Shovels, pipes and pumps are the common denominator in these
jerojero 4y ago
If it was as simple as you're painting it then it wouldn't be a problem. The fact that it is a problem should indicate to you that there are factors you might not be considering. For example, the logistics to provide plumbing to developing nations are extremely difficult because of the instability of these regions as well as the lack of cooperation from developed nations to precisely help in these much needed regards. A lot of the help these places get come in the form of philanthropic pursuit or misguided help that end up either not helping or sometimes worsening the situation. Not only that, but there are many interests at play that also get in the way of these places developing. For many powerful actors in these countries the status quo is good enough and any form of development actually threatens their position. And yes, sadly, this applies to plumbing as well! It's very true that we know how to do plumbing, in the technical sense, but in reality we don't know how to do plumbing in these regions because our technical knowledge is not applicable given the socio-political situation. So this does require an interdisciplinary approach, one that involves sociology, psychology, economics, politics, etc.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Fascinating that political sociology invalidates known plumbing technology.
- tomrod 4y ago
  You covered exactly what I said, with more words, until making the claim that an interdisciplinary approach is required. "Interdisciplinary approach" means we need to research the problem space. The research is already done. The solutions are ready and exist. Its the implementation that people get squeamish on for fear of offending portions of the coalition in power. Their squeamishness doesn't justify delaying action, which is what your approach advocates by casting solutioneering as requiring additional raw research versus applying what is known. Pipes, shovels, and pumps solve a lot of core problems for a community. Where and how they get laid down doesn't require sociology or political economy research. You might care about the people displaced by the infrastructure, which a compassionate person will, but don't forget that home construction and legal recompense for eminent domain are also known. The major difference between your and my approaches: while the interdisciplinarists are arguing about the impact of infrastructure development on endangered plants and relative value of indigenous pottery buried for several thousand years, the pragmatists are getting people out of the bondage of poverty and enabling them solve their problems themselves because they have risen above subsistence. Note there is value to ensuring the endangered plants are maintained and the indigenous pottery is studied -- as well as the knowledge gained from all fields that might come to an interdisciplinarists table -- but one must recognize the advancement of patron-funded knowledge is a bottleneck when it stands in the way of well-understood solutions.
  - tbrownaw 4y ago
    > Its the implementation that people get squeamish on for fear of offending portions of the coalition in power. Their squeamishness doesn't justify delaying action, And that action that's totally appropriate but people are just too squeamish for would be ... what, an armed invasion to impose "better" cultural values?
    - 4y ago

jotm 4y ago

No, we know why: the people. The governments, the culture/desires. And I don't mean only Africa or Asia, (before someone calls me racist). Any country has had this problem. The simplest solution is to instate mandatory community service, preferably in lieu of military service, but it could be a sort of "Subotnik" as seen in the USSR, which would be used for... You guessed it, doing community/public service work. Then you have all the manpower and just need food (some compensation/thanks is good) tools and organization/training (can double as job training). Not much to ask imo, but of course many people will cry about it. Mostly people from countries with a lot of homeless and unpaid internships, but it's not like most people want to do unpaid work much, either. On the bright side, most people won't raise much of a fuss about it, either. So that's not happening. Government officials stealing foreign aid is happening. Local production is not happening. Wars are happening. Toilets are not. Etc.

concordDance 4y ago
How exactly does time limited slavery help with the culture? What stops this labour being used in corrupt or self serving fashions just as the money is?
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  This is an interesting question. The ancient Incan Empire collected taxes in labor (basically part-time slavery, everyone had to do their 2 months a year or so), and they managed to build enormous infrastructure across the Andes in just a few decades. And in high quality. Many of the roads can still be seen, 500 years after they were built. How did they prevent capture of this labor by corrupt local officials? I don't know.
- jotm 4y ago
  Slavery, fucking L. There are villages without proper taxation or any public services. Paying in labour works as an alternative. What stops anyone from using a kitchen knife to stab someone to death? If you look at it that way, you'll get nothing done.

colechristensen 4y ago

Ivory tower musing about why poor countries are corrupt and disorganized is not the key missing activity blocking them from prosperity. The countries which are not poor and disorganized did not get there through the benevolent study by their betters.