2 ms·

Kind of meaningless if you can't trust the software running on your device though, since it could be scanning locally or relaying to remote services.

by pabs3 4y ago

fsflover 4y ago
So run free software?
- sschueller 4y ago
  Like signal that still refuses to put their client on fdroid?
  - btdmaster 4y ago
    Like Element which does publish its client on F-Droid: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ (Yes, F-Droid availability is a very good cutoff, I agree.)
  - fsflover 4y ago
    I do not consider Signal trustworthy for such reasons.
- edf13 4y ago
  Are you confident enough to audit the free software yourself - or pushing the trust back to someone else?
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Our modern society couldn't exist without some trust, but there are huge differences in types of trust and the trustee's underlying motivations. Trusting the community to audit is like trusting the scientific method. Anyone can find and point out a flaw, which can then be verified by everyone. That's an idyllic description, and the process is quite imperfect, but it's the best we've got. Meanwhile, trusting a surveillance company to self police is like trusting a quack medicine healer.
- threeseed 4y ago
  Every free software will have dozens or even hundreds of transitive dependencies. It literally isn't possible for an ordinary person to audit all code. At some point you have to blindly trust.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    There us a huge difference between you alone trusting a piece of software and the whole community verifying it at random.
- pabs3 4y ago
  It isn't enough to run free software, all your contacts need to do that as well. It is the old gmail problem highlighted by Mako Hill: https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-because-it-has-all-of-yours https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-be...
  - fsflover 4y ago
    You are right: You also need to promote free software among your friends and help it to improve.
einpoklum 4y ago
Exactly. Demand an open source for every encryption app - or at least those offered to the public en masse. It's not enough that a FOSS alternative _exists_; it needs to be the case that closed-source encryption is not considered as an actual encryption "end".
jstanley 4y ago
This is an instance of the trope "if you can't solve everything, you shouldn't solve anything". It is fallacious because you'll never get there if you're not allowed to make incremental advances.

Kind of meaningless if you can't trust the software running on your device though, since it could be scanning locally or relaying to remote services.

by pabs3 4y ago

Kind of meaningless if you can't trust the software running on your device though, since it could be scanning locally or relaying to remote services.

fsflover 4y ago

So run free software?

sschueller 4y ago
Like signal that still refuses to put their client on fdroid?
- btdmaster 4y ago
  Like Element which does publish its client on F-Droid: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ (Yes, F-Droid availability is a very good cutoff, I agree.)
- fsflover 4y ago
  I do not consider Signal trustworthy for such reasons.
edf13 4y ago
Are you confident enough to audit the free software yourself - or pushing the trust back to someone else?
- mindslight 4y ago
  Our modern society couldn't exist without some trust, but there are huge differences in types of trust and the trustee's underlying motivations. Trusting the community to audit is like trusting the scientific method. Anyone can find and point out a flaw, which can then be verified by everyone. That's an idyllic description, and the process is quite imperfect, but it's the best we've got. Meanwhile, trusting a surveillance company to self police is like trusting a quack medicine healer.
threeseed 4y ago
Every free software will have dozens or even hundreds of transitive dependencies. It literally isn't possible for an ordinary person to audit all code. At some point you have to blindly trust.
- fsflover 4y ago
  There us a huge difference between you alone trusting a piece of software and the whole community verifying it at random.
pabs3 4y ago
It isn't enough to run free software, all your contacts need to do that as well. It is the old gmail problem highlighted by Mako Hill: https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-because-it-has-all-of-yours https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-be...
- fsflover 4y ago
  You are right: You also need to promote free software among your friends and help it to improve.

einpoklum 4y ago

Exactly. Demand an open source for every encryption app - or at least those offered to the public en masse. It's not enough that a FOSS alternative _exists_; it needs to be the case that closed-source encryption is not considered as an actual encryption "end".

jstanley 4y ago

This is an instance of the trope "if you can't solve everything, you shouldn't solve anything". It is fallacious because you'll never get there if you're not allowed to make incremental advances.