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Though still relevant, this is old stuff. Nowadays many of the largest forums are simply captured, by a dedicated team working to a script with dozens of alts.

Though still relevant, this is old stuff. Nowadays many of the largest forums are simply captured, by a dedicated team working to a script with dozens of alts. Once you have complicit moderators, this stuff is lame in comparison. Once your guy / team has mod control, you can change the entire culture and tone of the forum, as soft or as hard as you like, and ban complainers. You can make posts invisible to search engines, or remove posts for a couple hours and then put them back once the algorithm is bored of them. You can wipe posts entirely, give no explanation, and wipe the posts that complain. If you think people wouldn't bother to do this, think again. There's significant amounts of money and political capital involved. What PR company or major political party wouldn't want control of a national subreddit that keeps making corruption and cover-ups hard to control?

ChadB 4y ago
I never realized just how bad this can be until I started selling/marketing my startup. I was so confused by the reaction to my participation on a few subreddits where my target customers hang out - I had never experienced anything like it before. I started to see patterns (not only against my posts personally, although I quickly stopped trying to participate) because I began to understand the market players. It's unreal how inauthentic most of the content actually is and how much of it is straight up shill marketing. I suspect this is true for a large number of niche forums where specific products or services become "blessed" by the community. The only way to accomplish this is with either a large network of puppet accounts or with the support of the moderators. Probably both.
thimkerbell 4y ago
How would an outside reader be able to detect that this sort of manipulation was occurring?
- mandmandam 4y ago
  With a lot of effort, tbh. And that's just to see it happening - making anyone care is orders of magnitude harder again. People have enough to be worrying about these days without online forum drama. To answer your question a bit though: * The 'dead giveaway' is basically always going to be some kind of mod drama. Sometimes this is fake drama, sometimes it's to harass existing mods out, sometimes it goes as far as print media and tv stories accusing a forum of bad behavior. Look at who is instigating it, how often they support each other, how much they're posting and commenting, how quickly they comment on relevant threads etc. * Keep an eye out for sudden and extreme rule changes, such as moving political talk to a seperate (much smaller) subreddit moderated by known antagonists; or removing discussion of topics such as racism, BLM, etc. This can be a sign that the new mods are 'bought' in some way. * Browse by new to get a glimpse at stories before they're removed. This is most useful when there's a story getting actively buried, or a narrative being pushed. * There are tools that can help you keep track of users such as RES, or to analyze user's history. * You can use these tools to find people who are fighting back and keep track of their insights, or keep an eye on accounts known for bs-ing. It's a lot of effort for very little reward though lol. * It can be illuminating to post verboten stories yourself, then keep track of any strangeness. E.g., the story getting removed, funniness with the vote count, particular commenters rushing in to spread fud, etc. You can try it here on HN, to get a glimpse of how actively some groups keep track of hot topics: Find a fresh story that goes against an industry (or empire) known for their online PR goons, and see what happens when you post it. Even comments mentioning certain keywords will attract attention. If you think that sounds conspiratorial - just try it.
somat 4y ago
Made me remember this somewhat related xkcd. The problem with posting comments the order they are submitted. https://xkcd.com/1019/ https://xkcd.com/1019/ But like you said, any system can be gamed. The whole situation is rather depressing.

ChadB 4y ago

I never realized just how bad this can be until I started selling/marketing my startup. I was so confused by the reaction to my participation on a few subreddits where my target customers hang out - I had never experienced anything like it before. I started to see patterns (not only against my posts personally, although I quickly stopped trying to participate) because I began to understand the market players. It's unreal how inauthentic most of the content actually is and how much of it is straight up shill marketing. I suspect this is true for a large number of niche forums where specific products or services become "blessed" by the community. The only way to accomplish this is with either a large network of puppet accounts or with the support of the moderators. Probably both.

thimkerbell 4y ago

How would an outside reader be able to detect that this sort of manipulation was occurring?

mandmandam 4y ago
With a lot of effort, tbh. And that's just to see it happening - making anyone care is orders of magnitude harder again. People have enough to be worrying about these days without online forum drama. To answer your question a bit though: * The 'dead giveaway' is basically always going to be some kind of mod drama. Sometimes this is fake drama, sometimes it's to harass existing mods out, sometimes it goes as far as print media and tv stories accusing a forum of bad behavior. Look at who is instigating it, how often they support each other, how much they're posting and commenting, how quickly they comment on relevant threads etc. * Keep an eye out for sudden and extreme rule changes, such as moving political talk to a seperate (much smaller) subreddit moderated by known antagonists; or removing discussion of topics such as racism, BLM, etc. This can be a sign that the new mods are 'bought' in some way. * Browse by new to get a glimpse at stories before they're removed. This is most useful when there's a story getting actively buried, or a narrative being pushed. * There are tools that can help you keep track of users such as RES, or to analyze user's history. * You can use these tools to find people who are fighting back and keep track of their insights, or keep an eye on accounts known for bs-ing. It's a lot of effort for very little reward though lol. * It can be illuminating to post verboten stories yourself, then keep track of any strangeness. E.g., the story getting removed, funniness with the vote count, particular commenters rushing in to spread fud, etc. You can try it here on HN, to get a glimpse of how actively some groups keep track of hot topics: Find a fresh story that goes against an industry (or empire) known for their online PR goons, and see what happens when you post it. Even comments mentioning certain keywords will attract attention. If you think that sounds conspiratorial - just try it.

somat 4y ago

Made me remember this somewhat related xkcd. The problem with posting comments the order they are submitted. https://xkcd.com/1019/ https://xkcd.com/1019/ But like you said, any system can be gamed. The whole situation is rather depressing.