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Somebody doing real things some of the time doesn't preclude them scamming other times. And vice versa, somebody scamming some of the time doesn't necessarily

Somebody doing real things some of the time doesn't preclude them scamming other times. And vice versa, somebody scamming some of the time doesn't necessarily mean everything they does is a scam. Basically, the rockets being real doesn't prove that FSD isn't a scam. And FSD being a scam doesn't prove the rockets aren't real.

harmmonica 4y ago
Agree. My intent wasn’t to suggest otherwise. I was trying to give more depth to my question of what the parent could mean when they said Musk’s number may come up. On the topic of FSD, I think that could be a fair answer for “why is Musk a fraud?” but that would require a follow up question: is FSD fraudulent, like the people working on it inside Tesla, or maybe just Elon, know it won’t ever work and are lying when they say it will? If yes that seems like fraud and therefore the parent comment would end up being right about Elon’s number. But if he genuinely believes they’re going to get there and they’re wrong about the timing? That’s not fraud in the legal sense, is it? If he’s constantly wrong about the timing? It could be unethical to keep on saying it’ll be here soon and not delivering, and based on some of his behavior you can certainly make the case he may be unethical, but I guess I think the bar for being a fraud or even called a fraud is or ought to be higher (like Theranos or Nikola or Enron or MCI, the list goes on).
- bigmattystyles 4y ago
  It was unethical (and dangerous) the moment they called `autopilot`
- cma 4y ago
  Shouldn't it at least have to work well within the lifetime of the cars they sold with it (first in 2016)? If they refund with interest everyone including people who sold it will be less of a retail scam, but still an investor scam.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > is FSD fraudulent, like the people working on it inside Tesla, or maybe just Elon, know it won’t ever work They must know it would never have worked in the timeline they gave for it. Elon Musk got on stage and told people it would be fiscally irresponsible not to buy his cars because his cars would earn passive income as robo-taxis. There was simply no way that was going to happen and most people who weren't fanboys already thought it a risible claim. They aren't even close to level 5 and they knew it. Years later and they still aren't close to it. Now, could you prove in court this was fraud and not just moronic optimism? Maybe, maybe not. That probably depends on what they were foolish enough to put in writing where legal discovery might find it. But personally I don't see a shred of reasonable doubt; it was fraud plain and simple. He knew these claims were bullshit but knew self driving cars were hype so he shamelessly exploited that hype to sell cars.
- Volundr 4y ago
  > That’s not fraud in the legal sense, is it? If he’s constantly wrong about the timing? There is fraud in the legal sense and the colloquial sense. If I describe myself as a genius programmer, but am actually quite below average, I'm probably not legally on the hook for fraud, but me peers might call my one. Similarly if you continually claim year after year that full self driving is a year away your either clueless about how long it'll take and how difficult a problem it is, while also being too clueless to realize how clueless you are (despite being so consistently wrong), and a colloquial fraud, or you know darn good and well that your claims are wrong and are just putting them out there to boost your stock price (potentially legal fraud).

harmmonica 4y ago

Agree. My intent wasn’t to suggest otherwise. I was trying to give more depth to my question of what the parent could mean when they said Musk’s number may come up. On the topic of FSD, I think that could be a fair answer for “why is Musk a fraud?” but that would require a follow up question: is FSD fraudulent, like the people working on it inside Tesla, or maybe just Elon, know it won’t ever work and are lying when they say it will? If yes that seems like fraud and therefore the parent comment would end up being right about Elon’s number. But if he genuinely believes they’re going to get there and they’re wrong about the timing? That’s not fraud in the legal sense, is it? If he’s constantly wrong about the timing? It could be unethical to keep on saying it’ll be here soon and not delivering, and based on some of his behavior you can certainly make the case he may be unethical, but I guess I think the bar for being a fraud or even called a fraud is or ought to be higher (like Theranos or Nikola or Enron or MCI, the list goes on).

bigmattystyles 4y ago
It was unethical (and dangerous) the moment they called `autopilot`
cma 4y ago
Shouldn't it at least have to work well within the lifetime of the cars they sold with it (first in 2016)? If they refund with interest everyone including people who sold it will be less of a retail scam, but still an investor scam.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> is FSD fraudulent, like the people working on it inside Tesla, or maybe just Elon, know it won’t ever work They must know it would never have worked in the timeline they gave for it. Elon Musk got on stage and told people it would be fiscally irresponsible not to buy his cars because his cars would earn passive income as robo-taxis. There was simply no way that was going to happen and most people who weren't fanboys already thought it a risible claim. They aren't even close to level 5 and they knew it. Years later and they still aren't close to it. Now, could you prove in court this was fraud and not just moronic optimism? Maybe, maybe not. That probably depends on what they were foolish enough to put in writing where legal discovery might find it. But personally I don't see a shred of reasonable doubt; it was fraud plain and simple. He knew these claims were bullshit but knew self driving cars were hype so he shamelessly exploited that hype to sell cars.
Volundr 4y ago
> That’s not fraud in the legal sense, is it? If he’s constantly wrong about the timing? There is fraud in the legal sense and the colloquial sense. If I describe myself as a genius programmer, but am actually quite below average, I'm probably not legally on the hook for fraud, but me peers might call my one. Similarly if you continually claim year after year that full self driving is a year away your either clueless about how long it'll take and how difficult a problem it is, while also being too clueless to realize how clueless you are (despite being so consistently wrong), and a colloquial fraud, or you know darn good and well that your claims are wrong and are just putting them out there to boost your stock price (potentially legal fraud).