5 ms·

Man says he lowered his town’s water fluoride for over a decade

38 points by HieronymusBosch 4y ago

DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago
Any data on cavities per capita in the area over the past decade?
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
  > there is not a lot of high-quality data looking at all the possible effects of fluoridating community water This guy just inadvertently (or not) created a great study pool.
  - fy20 4y ago
    There are many parts of Europe that do not add fluoride, often it differs within the same country so you can rule of culture differences: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-England-and-Wales-illustrating-the-boundaries-of-the-water-companies-with_fig1_259725961 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-England-and-Wales...
jleyank 4y ago
Send the guy all of the bills for fillings and the like.
- cplusplusfellow 4y ago
  Likely none.
V__ 4y ago
How is it possible (even for a small town of only 4100) that one person can change the water composition for a decade without anyone noticing? Besides the health implication, isn't this a huge national security risk if there is no monitoring in place?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  No governance, controls, or risk management over life critical systems. It’s everywhere, you just don’t know or see it until it fails.
- rejectfinite 4y ago
  You think somebody checks? On anything, ever? The guy who did it was the water guy, not some random.
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    This is why we need to get actual meters and assays into the hands of the tinfoilhats.
- codyogden 4y ago
  My parent worked at a water treatment plant in a small town. They could have easily screwed around with the chemical compositions without anyone knowing. Nearly anyone could have brute forced the control room: a single key/lock would need to be bypassed. There was no access control or logging to the room itself, and everyone who worked there had a master key to all buildings and facilities. Lab tests were done on site and were recorded manually, so they could easily just lie about the results.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  Reality is we're pretty lucky that terrorists are mostly exaggerated, and the ones that do exist are too mentally unstable to really make a good plan. Virtually no infrastructure has actual physical security in place. Especially when you start to think about modern consumer drone tech.
Trouble_007 4y ago
The Arstechnica comments are worthy of a read, I particularly liked the 'Dr. Strangelove' reference. 'How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb' : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove >General Jack D. Ripper : You know when fluoridation first began? Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake : I... no, no. I don't, Jack. General Jack D. Ripper : Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake : Uh, Jack, Jack, listen... tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?*
ParksNet 4y ago
People rebel against fluoride, but ignore pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates from plastic piping...
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I found it funny how pro science the voters of Portland, OR / Multnomah County were when it came to enacting COVID protocols, but have rejected the science of water fluoridation multiple times, most recently in 2013.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Science is wonderful and great and the best as long as it agrees with my existing biases and opinions. Otherwise someone is doing it wrong.
- gruez 4y ago
  You can stop adding fluoride to water with basically zero consequences (especially if people are already using fluoride toothpaste), whereas "pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates" can't be removed without significant economic impact. Moreover, the economic impact from stopping "pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates" is immediate, whereas any cavities that might show up from stopping flouride will take decades.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  Even better, just Reverse Osmosis and remove all of that junk.
nkurz 4y ago
One question I had was whether fluoridated water provides additional benefit if you are already using a fluoridated toothpaste. Obviously, having it in the water would benefit people who don't regularly brush their teeth, but it's not obvious that it's helpful if you already are getting your fluorine from the toothpaste. It's of interest to me because I drink non-fluoridated well water, but brush my teeth daily with a modern toothpaste. Anyone know? My quick attempt to research this lead me to this nice Nature article from last year: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02924-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02924-6. The article helps to quantify the positives of fluoridation of water: real, but not as large as one might guess. The bulk of the article is about someone who sued the EPA to prevent fluoridation of public water supplies. From what I can tell the suit is much delayed but still in progress: https://fluoridealert.org/issues/tsca-fluoride-trial/ https://fluoridealert.org/issues/tsca-fluoride-trial/.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lokimedes 4y ago
  I was under the impression that fluoride as well as chlorine is added to reduce the risk of bacterial growth in the water supply as well? We don’t add anything to the water in Denmark unless an added risk of contamination is detected. All toothpaste is fluoridated though.
- regpertom 4y ago
  Around a decade ago I saw an analysis of fluoridated drinking water and iirc the positive for drinking over toothpaste is that the fluoride hangs around in the mouth longer for drinking.
kbos87 4y ago
How is there not a single mention of the potential of criminal liability on his part?
pyuser583 4y ago
I’d like to know what levels he was keeping it at. Some places have too much fluoride. “Too much” harder to calculate because it’s determine by non-tap water exposure. Toothpaste, etc. There was a scandal in my town when it turned out that we had really high fluoride. Dentists had been warning about it, but nobody wanted to be “the dentist opposed to fluoride.” It seems the states desired level are pretty low, but it’s frustrating we are not told what he lowered it to.
- nkurz 4y ago
  The linked article says "Chamberlin first acknowledged to town officials on September 19 that he had long been lowering the town's fluoride to roughly half the state's standard". His resignation letter [1] is more specific, and gives numbers for 2011 to 2022 that range from .33 to .63 ppm. The state recommends (or mandates, depending on who you trust) .7 ppm. [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23168705-chamberlin-letter https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23168705-chamberlin-...
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    While I don’t know the whole story, this letter makes me feel this guy is in the right: > In other words, in 2011, federal and state agencies lowered the maximum safe fluoridation levels by half, and lowered the “recommended” levels by a third, but declined to require any mandatory minimum level of fluoridation. > This misunderstanding was not due to anything 1 said or did. T consistently reported the accurate fluoridation levels to the State in monthly reports and to Richmond Water System Customers in annual reports. 2011 was around the time of the local scandal I witnessed. There was pressure to lower flouridation levels, and many people freaked out - quoting Dr Strangelove - rather than listening to science. The local scandal I witnessed was eventually resolved when the State dental association got involved. It would be nice if the Vermont dental association weighed in.
tareqak 4y ago
Same story from the Associated Press: Worker who lowered Vermont town’s fluoride for years resigns https://apnews.com/article/health-vermont-fluoridation-public-b979798abfb56ce5bfa4ba6fcd71f12d https://apnews.com/article/health-vermont-fluoridation-publi...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mc32 4y ago
The Netherlands has not fluoridated tap water since '73 :https://fluoridealert.org/researchers/government-reports/the-netherlands-2/ https://fluoridealert.org/researchers/government-reports/the... It's no big deal.
heynowheynow 4y ago
"Have you ever heard of a thing called 'fluoridation?'" https://youtu.be/J67wKhddWu4 https://youtu.be/J67wKhddWu4

DIARRHEA_xd 4y ago

Any data on cavities per capita in the area over the past decade?

AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
> there is not a lot of high-quality data looking at all the possible effects of fluoridating community water This guy just inadvertently (or not) created a great study pool.
- fy20 4y ago
  There are many parts of Europe that do not add fluoride, often it differs within the same country so you can rule of culture differences: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-England-and-Wales-illustrating-the-boundaries-of-the-water-companies-with_fig1_259725961 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-England-and-Wales...

jleyank 4y ago

Send the guy all of the bills for fillings and the like.

cplusplusfellow 4y ago
Likely none.

V__ 4y ago

How is it possible (even for a small town of only 4100) that one person can change the water composition for a decade without anyone noticing? Besides the health implication, isn't this a huge national security risk if there is no monitoring in place?

toomuchtodo 4y ago
No governance, controls, or risk management over life critical systems. It’s everywhere, you just don’t know or see it until it fails.
rejectfinite 4y ago
You think somebody checks? On anything, ever? The guy who did it was the water guy, not some random.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  This is why we need to get actual meters and assays into the hands of the tinfoilhats.
codyogden 4y ago
My parent worked at a water treatment plant in a small town. They could have easily screwed around with the chemical compositions without anyone knowing. Nearly anyone could have brute forced the control room: a single key/lock would need to be bypassed. There was no access control or logging to the room itself, and everyone who worked there had a master key to all buildings and facilities. Lab tests were done on site and were recorded manually, so they could easily just lie about the results.
thatguy0900 4y ago
Reality is we're pretty lucky that terrorists are mostly exaggerated, and the ones that do exist are too mentally unstable to really make a good plan. Virtually no infrastructure has actual physical security in place. Especially when you start to think about modern consumer drone tech.

Trouble_007 4y ago

The Arstechnica comments are worthy of a read, I particularly liked the 'Dr. Strangelove' reference. 'How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb' : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove >General Jack D. Ripper : You know when fluoridation first began? Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake : I... no, no. I don't, Jack. General Jack D. Ripper : Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake : Uh, Jack, Jack, listen... tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?*

ParksNet 4y ago

People rebel against fluoride, but ignore pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates from plastic piping...

lotsofpulp 4y ago
I found it funny how pro science the voters of Portland, OR / Multnomah County were when it came to enacting COVID protocols, but have rejected the science of water fluoridation multiple times, most recently in 2013.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bombcar 4y ago
  Science is wonderful and great and the best as long as it agrees with my existing biases and opinions. Otherwise someone is doing it wrong.
gruez 4y ago
You can stop adding fluoride to water with basically zero consequences (especially if people are already using fluoride toothpaste), whereas "pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates" can't be removed without significant economic impact. Moreover, the economic impact from stopping "pesticide residues, PFAS contamination, leachates" is immediate, whereas any cavities that might show up from stopping flouride will take decades.
reducesuffering 4y ago
Even better, just Reverse Osmosis and remove all of that junk.

nkurz 4y ago

One question I had was whether fluoridated water provides additional benefit if you are already using a fluoridated toothpaste. Obviously, having it in the water would benefit people who don't regularly brush their teeth, but it's not obvious that it's helpful if you already are getting your fluorine from the toothpaste. It's of interest to me because I drink non-fluoridated well water, but brush my teeth daily with a modern toothpaste. Anyone know? My quick attempt to research this lead me to this nice Nature article from last year: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02924-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02924-6. The article helps to quantify the positives of fluoridation of water: real, but not as large as one might guess. The bulk of the article is about someone who sued the EPA to prevent fluoridation of public water supplies. From what I can tell the suit is much delayed but still in progress: https://fluoridealert.org/issues/tsca-fluoride-trial/ https://fluoridealert.org/issues/tsca-fluoride-trial/.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lokimedes 4y ago
I was under the impression that fluoride as well as chlorine is added to reduce the risk of bacterial growth in the water supply as well? We don’t add anything to the water in Denmark unless an added risk of contamination is detected. All toothpaste is fluoridated though.
regpertom 4y ago
Around a decade ago I saw an analysis of fluoridated drinking water and iirc the positive for drinking over toothpaste is that the fluoride hangs around in the mouth longer for drinking.

kbos87 4y ago

How is there not a single mention of the potential of criminal liability on his part?

pyuser583 4y ago

I’d like to know what levels he was keeping it at. Some places have too much fluoride. “Too much” harder to calculate because it’s determine by non-tap water exposure. Toothpaste, etc. There was a scandal in my town when it turned out that we had really high fluoride. Dentists had been warning about it, but nobody wanted to be “the dentist opposed to fluoride.” It seems the states desired level are pretty low, but it’s frustrating we are not told what he lowered it to.

nkurz 4y ago
The linked article says "Chamberlin first acknowledged to town officials on September 19 that he had long been lowering the town's fluoride to roughly half the state's standard". His resignation letter [1] is more specific, and gives numbers for 2011 to 2022 that range from .33 to .63 ppm. The state recommends (or mandates, depending on who you trust) .7 ppm. [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23168705-chamberlin-letter https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23168705-chamberlin-...
- pyuser583 4y ago
  While I don’t know the whole story, this letter makes me feel this guy is in the right: > In other words, in 2011, federal and state agencies lowered the maximum safe fluoridation levels by half, and lowered the “recommended” levels by a third, but declined to require any mandatory minimum level of fluoridation. > This misunderstanding was not due to anything 1 said or did. T consistently reported the accurate fluoridation levels to the State in monthly reports and to Richmond Water System Customers in annual reports. 2011 was around the time of the local scandal I witnessed. There was pressure to lower flouridation levels, and many people freaked out - quoting Dr Strangelove - rather than listening to science. The local scandal I witnessed was eventually resolved when the State dental association got involved. It would be nice if the Vermont dental association weighed in.

tareqak 4y ago

Same story from the Associated Press: Worker who lowered Vermont town’s fluoride for years resigns https://apnews.com/article/health-vermont-fluoridation-public-b979798abfb56ce5bfa4ba6fcd71f12d https://apnews.com/article/health-vermont-fluoridation-publi...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mc32 4y ago

The Netherlands has not fluoridated tap water since '73 :https://fluoridealert.org/researchers/government-reports/the-netherlands-2/ https://fluoridealert.org/researchers/government-reports/the... It's no big deal.

heynowheynow 4y ago

"Have you ever heard of a thing called 'fluoridation?'" https://youtu.be/J67wKhddWu4 https://youtu.be/J67wKhddWu4