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You're right, and this is the thing that's frustrating about the conversations here--I guess I'm not surprised that this is an audience that doesn't get it. A l

You're right, and this is the thing that's frustrating about the conversations here--I guess I'm not surprised that this is an audience that doesn't get it. A lot of music acts, even popular ones, were broke as hell for a long time. It is reasonable and, I think, actively laudable to want folks who are not of the Patagonia-jacket class to be able to see them live for a reasonable price. There is a point where decent people can go "y'know, I make enough money" and not seek to squeeze out every ounce of blood from that stone; those same decent people can find it objectionable that other people attempt to do so on top of it. Not everything must be profit-maximized. Sometimes things like "bringing joy" might actually be more valuable. And even if you are a meat-variant paperclip maximizer, there's obvious value into getting people who do not make onewheel-through-San-Francisco money into your music or your art. The people who currently make that money are usually older and will eventually age out. I still go see certain 90's bands every time they roll through in no small part because I saw them as a kid and I think they're fun.

benji-york 4y ago
I think I am in total agreement with your comment and I have another angle to add for your consideration: Assume someone wanted to sell highly sought-after tickets for less than the market clearing (profit maximizing) price—as you suggest. Lowering the price will increase demand (because more people can afford them). We now have more demand for the tickets; how will that demand be expressed? Will some people stand in line for days to get the tickets? Is that a form of payment that some people can "pay" more easily that others because they are "richer" in disposable time? Will some people write software to shave milliseconds off of their ticket-buying reaction time? Is that a form of payment that some people can "pay" more easily than others because they have the requisite skills? Will some people pay others to do the above (or something similar)? It seems to me that these are all forms of payment and that the total payment (in currency or otherwise) will approximate the market-clearing price in pure currency from the other scenario. What do you think?
- eropple 4y ago
  I think the obvious answer is a fair lottery for reasonably-priced, non-transferable tickets.
ryandrake 4y ago
> I'm not surprised that this is an audience that doesn't get it. A lot of music acts, even popular ones, were broke as hell for a long time. It is reasonable and, I think, actively laudable to want folks who are not of the Patagonia-jacket class to be able to see them live for a reasonable price. I think we get the motivation, but what they are trying to do is not possible in a market without implementing strict rules. It is noble that a provider of a luxury, supply-limited service wants to provide it for a cost below market. It really is! But in practice it will never work because scalpers will arbitrage that price up to the real market price. If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? If I’m a manufacturer of a very nice car and can only make 1000 of them a year, but still want to sell them for $5,000 so low income people can afford it, that plan is just not going to work. This is actually currently happening with Raspberry Pi computers. The only ones you can currently get are for higher prices on the secondary market.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? The optimal solution is to give a quota for fan clubs and the rest away personalized in a fair lottery, while requiring proof that you can't attend for a valid reason (e.g. a doctor's note) to be eligible for a refund/swap.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > what they are trying to do is not possible in a market without implementing strict rules Then implement the strict rules! > If you disallow scalpers somehow Easy: tickets are non-transferrable. Names are printed on the tickets, and you present ID when attending the show. A looser alternative (since there are legitimate reasons why someone might want to give a ticket to someone else) is that tickets can only be re-sold at face value. Downside here is the only way to enforce that is digital-only tickets, but these days that's maybe not much of a problem. > If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? Yes, it's much better. Not perfect, but strictly better. Your car analogy is not relevant, as it involves manufacturing. Concert ticket sales do not benefit from economies of scale in the same way.

benji-york 4y ago

I think I am in total agreement with your comment and I have another angle to add for your consideration: Assume someone wanted to sell highly sought-after tickets for less than the market clearing (profit maximizing) price—as you suggest. Lowering the price will increase demand (because more people can afford them). We now have more demand for the tickets; how will that demand be expressed? Will some people stand in line for days to get the tickets? Is that a form of payment that some people can "pay" more easily that others because they are "richer" in disposable time? Will some people write software to shave milliseconds off of their ticket-buying reaction time? Is that a form of payment that some people can "pay" more easily than others because they have the requisite skills? Will some people pay others to do the above (or something similar)? It seems to me that these are all forms of payment and that the total payment (in currency or otherwise) will approximate the market-clearing price in pure currency from the other scenario. What do you think?

eropple 4y ago
I think the obvious answer is a fair lottery for reasonably-priced, non-transferable tickets.

ryandrake 4y ago

> I'm not surprised that this is an audience that doesn't get it. A lot of music acts, even popular ones, were broke as hell for a long time. It is reasonable and, I think, actively laudable to want folks who are not of the Patagonia-jacket class to be able to see them live for a reasonable price. I think we get the motivation, but what they are trying to do is not possible in a market without implementing strict rules. It is noble that a provider of a luxury, supply-limited service wants to provide it for a cost below market. It really is! But in practice it will never work because scalpers will arbitrage that price up to the real market price. If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? If I’m a manufacturer of a very nice car and can only make 1000 of them a year, but still want to sell them for $5,000 so low income people can afford it, that plan is just not going to work. This is actually currently happening with Raspberry Pi computers. The only ones you can currently get are for higher prices on the secondary market.

mschuster91 4y ago
> If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? The optimal solution is to give a quota for fan clubs and the rest away personalized in a fair lottery, while requiring proof that you can't attend for a valid reason (e.g. a doctor's note) to be eligible for a refund/swap.
kelnos 4y ago
> what they are trying to do is not possible in a market without implementing strict rules Then implement the strict rules! > If you disallow scalpers somehow Easy: tickets are non-transferrable. Names are printed on the tickets, and you present ID when attending the show. A looser alternative (since there are legitimate reasons why someone might want to give a ticket to someone else) is that tickets can only be re-sold at face value. Downside here is the only way to enforce that is digital-only tickets, but these days that's maybe not much of a problem. > If you disallow scalpers somehow, you will sell out instantly and then only lucky fans get the service, rather than rich fans. Is that any better? Yes, it's much better. Not perfect, but strictly better. Your car analogy is not relevant, as it involves manufacturing. Concert ticket sales do not benefit from economies of scale in the same way.