4 ms·

The whole "let's turn this into a libertarian political-philosophical discussion" angle is a misdirection. (And an increasingly common one, eg., cf. crypto).

The whole "let's turn this into a libertarian political-philosophical discussion" angle is a misdirection. (And an increasingly common one, eg., cf. crypto). The guy installed spyware on laptops in a commercial store and then publicly displayed the data collected. It's an open-and-shut case. Almost any person who went to that store, and any store owner, would be furious. It is these people the law here protects(, and damn right too) -- the interests of the artist aren't "the little guy's" and more than a burglar is the underdog. A burglar claiming the police are corrupt for protecting property owners is as meglomanical as this guy. This isn't some middle-aged academic wishing he were in a mythical past, he's a guy breaking into computers, stealing data, and using it to boost his own career.

antihero 4y ago
It is literal truth that the first police in the US were slave hunters and the first police station in the world was to protect from theft at the Wapping docks
- williamcotton 4y ago
  There were constables in England in the Middle Ages. There have been local volunteer watchman and paid constables in the United States since the early colonial days. There was also "hue and cry", whereby someone witnessed a crime and then shouted out and all men were supposed to help catch the criminal. This, as can be imagined, was sometimes quite the shit-show.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary? Also, city guards have existed in Europe and China since before tge US existed. They didn't use the word "police" obviously. I wish "cops = nazis" people would explain what they would have instead.
  - antihero 4y ago
    The idea that you can’t criticise the failings and nature of something you also use are so tiring. Crime happens for so many reasons, some of which force maybe required to stop or hold people accountable, and many of the reasons are endemic to the system we live in. Other things could be prevented by provisioning elsewhere.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      When did I say you can’t criticise the failings and nature of something? I stated that your assertion was wrong, and asked questions that need answering by "defund the police" people. You never explicitly stated you want to dedund the police, but this is the argument those people make for it's removal. I read an article in the magazine of a major newspaper that said to remove prison and the police entirely, and this was before Floyd. I never said you support this position, and I never gave you any instruction. I asked you relevant questions and examined your statement. You didn't respond to any of it
  - grecy 4y ago
    > What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary? In yesterday’s discussion about getting mugged in San Fran, virtually every comment said “the police did not help”.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
> It's an open-and-shut case. Why was it dropped then?
- mjburgess 4y ago
  Little public interest in the secret service pursing a 25yo megalomaniac moron, who thinks installing spyware makes him the hero against the forces of institutional evil. I imagine apple contacted the secret service in the first place because they weren't sure what else he'd done, other than, installing spyware across NY's apple stores. Once they realised it was just an art project, I imagine they backed off to be kind, not because he couldnt be prosecuted. He clearly violated the CFAA
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    So you have it all figured out, including motivations not expressed in the piece.
    - mjburgess 4y ago
      Of course they're not expressed. I did however go and read articles from 2011, which give a clear account consistent with my interpretation.
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Your descriptions of a mustache-twirling villain are overstated to say the least.
  - kcimc 4y ago
    my impression was that apple initiated contact based on an assumption that i was running a keylogger or other information that could be used for identity theft. they quickly learned it was an art project but decided to apply force via the secret service to keep it from gaining too much publicity. after that caused a bit of a streisand effect, they decided not pursue a civil case. i would guess that the judge decided not to pursue a criminal case because it would have been an obvious waste of resources.
js8 4y ago
The illegality of it might be clear cut, but the immorality of it is not. And why should the store owner be furious, and not amused, or embarrassed? It's just things, nobody got hurt. It is a very libertarian idea that violence against property is morally the same as violence against a person.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  Right... but who's interest should the law here represent? There is no single common interest: this guy wants to install spyware and hijack pictures of customers for his own ends; apple doenst want that; customers dont want that (or even, of course, know about it!). So "immorality"-wise, who here are you empathising with? I, as a customer entering a store, do NOT want any burden to go and google whether that store has been hijacked by spyware and my data shared, etc. I want ZERO such burden. And i would expect the police to seriously deter any such "stunts". This guy has a sob story in which he's the hero... are you just going to take his framing? Empathise with the random guy in the store.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    A better question to start with is "where does the law fit into this?" What is the material consequence of this action? How does this affect people's lives? Why is that something that needs legislation? I'm not implying that there are no consequences, I'm curious how you interpret the issue.
    - themanmaran 4y ago
      > What is the material consequence of this action Almost none. Which is why there was no further prosecution. > Why is that something that needs legislation Because this is very similar to other acts that could have worse consequences. Consider instead of "installed funny spyware on apple laptops" was replaced with "installed funny spyware on ATMs".
      - uoaei 4y ago
        Lots of things "could" happen...

antihero 4y ago

It is literal truth that the first police in the US were slave hunters and the first police station in the world was to protect from theft at the Wapping docks

williamcotton 4y ago
There were constables in England in the Middle Ages. There have been local volunteer watchman and paid constables in the United States since the early colonial days. There was also "hue and cry", whereby someone witnessed a crime and then shouted out and all men were supposed to help catch the criminal. This, as can be imagined, was sometimes quite the shit-show.
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary? Also, city guards have existed in Europe and China since before tge US existed. They didn't use the word "police" obviously. I wish "cops = nazis" people would explain what they would have instead.
- antihero 4y ago
  The idea that you can’t criticise the failings and nature of something you also use are so tiring. Crime happens for so many reasons, some of which force maybe required to stop or hold people accountable, and many of the reasons are endemic to the system we live in. Other things could be prevented by provisioning elsewhere.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    When did I say you can’t criticise the failings and nature of something? I stated that your assertion was wrong, and asked questions that need answering by "defund the police" people. You never explicitly stated you want to dedund the police, but this is the argument those people make for it's removal. I read an article in the magazine of a major newspaper that said to remove prison and the police entirely, and this was before Floyd. I never said you support this position, and I never gave you any instruction. I asked you relevant questions and examined your statement. You didn't respond to any of it
- grecy 4y ago
  > What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary? In yesterday’s discussion about getting mugged in San Fran, virtually every comment said “the police did not help”.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

> It's an open-and-shut case. Why was it dropped then?

mjburgess 4y ago
Little public interest in the secret service pursing a 25yo megalomaniac moron, who thinks installing spyware makes him the hero against the forces of institutional evil. I imagine apple contacted the secret service in the first place because they weren't sure what else he'd done, other than, installing spyware across NY's apple stores. Once they realised it was just an art project, I imagine they backed off to be kind, not because he couldnt be prosecuted. He clearly violated the CFAA
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  So you have it all figured out, including motivations not expressed in the piece.
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    Of course they're not expressed. I did however go and read articles from 2011, which give a clear account consistent with my interpretation.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      Your descriptions of a mustache-twirling villain are overstated to say the least.
- kcimc 4y ago
  my impression was that apple initiated contact based on an assumption that i was running a keylogger or other information that could be used for identity theft. they quickly learned it was an art project but decided to apply force via the secret service to keep it from gaining too much publicity. after that caused a bit of a streisand effect, they decided not pursue a civil case. i would guess that the judge decided not to pursue a criminal case because it would have been an obvious waste of resources.

js8 4y ago

The illegality of it might be clear cut, but the immorality of it is not. And why should the store owner be furious, and not amused, or embarrassed? It's just things, nobody got hurt. It is a very libertarian idea that violence against property is morally the same as violence against a person.

mjburgess 4y ago
Right... but who's interest should the law here represent? There is no single common interest: this guy wants to install spyware and hijack pictures of customers for his own ends; apple doenst want that; customers dont want that (or even, of course, know about it!). So "immorality"-wise, who here are you empathising with? I, as a customer entering a store, do NOT want any burden to go and google whether that store has been hijacked by spyware and my data shared, etc. I want ZERO such burden. And i would expect the police to seriously deter any such "stunts". This guy has a sob story in which he's the hero... are you just going to take his framing? Empathise with the random guy in the store.
- uoaei 4y ago
  A better question to start with is "where does the law fit into this?" What is the material consequence of this action? How does this affect people's lives? Why is that something that needs legislation? I'm not implying that there are no consequences, I'm curious how you interpret the issue.
  - themanmaran 4y ago
    > What is the material consequence of this action Almost none. Which is why there was no further prosecution. > Why is that something that needs legislation Because this is very similar to other acts that could have worse consequences. Consider instead of "installed funny spyware on apple laptops" was replaced with "installed funny spyware on ATMs".
    - uoaei 4y ago
      Lots of things "could" happen...