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Modesty was developed across multiple societies as a way of equalizing physical attractiveness. There was a counterintuitive study a few years ago that found w

Modesty was developed across multiple societies as a way of equalizing physical attractiveness. There was a counterintuitive study a few years ago that found wearing a hijab improved the wearer's body image: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2014/09/15/347083281/covering-up-with-the-hijab-may-aid-womens-body-image https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2014/09/15/3470832... As a guy, I may never understand the competition women feel about their looks. But it should not be surprising when some of them support the current DMZ.

bruceb 4y ago
When the media puts most of your value on looks it not surprising some women might feel like it is a competition.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  On the other hand, remember that these modesty norms have existed in many cultures (particularly colder countries), for millennia. Long before there was a "media" creating competition.
  - legitster 4y ago
    > particularly colder countries Keep in mind average breast size correlates with colder weather.
    - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
      What is the correlation? Cold weather = large breasts, or the other way round? Or some non linear relation with a maximum somewhere?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  The media? Aren't we hard-wired to seek attractive mates because attractiveness is correlated with good health and genetics?
  - bruceb 4y ago
    No one is saying physical attractive was not valued before. But it is super charged by some media as basically the main value of a women. Then a literally unattainable image pushed as the ideal via photoshopped pics an video.
- xchip 4y ago
  That is only if you decided to believe in what media says. Pick your priest.
  - nix23 4y ago
    Country/Culture of media origin is also important ;)
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    The media serves as a coordinator in what would otherwise be a social coordination problem. Imagine for a moment, the game of "social value" and it's strategies. What is the Schelling point of such a game? Hard to say, right? It's easy however, to understand that a whichever the dominant strategy is, the cost/reward of following the dominant strategy on average is fairly high given the material constraints that any "social value" game would have.[1] In fact, choosing a a non-dominant "priest" has an opportunity cost associated with it over choosing a "dominant priest". In our society, media functions as a "dominant priest" or rather a communicator of the dominant strategy. Directing someone to choose a non-dominant strategy is a bit pointless to the people who are instead asking, "shouldn't we be playing a different game instead?" 1. As to what these are is left as an exercise to the reader.
SkyMarshal 4y ago
DMZ?
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Demilitarized Zone (for example, border between North Korea and South Korea). Edit @Brian_K_White: I don't either. Bad analogy.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    I don't get how that would apply in that context.
    - SkyMarshal 4y ago
      Yeah, I know what that DMZ is, just not how it was meant in this context. But themaninthedark explains it well above.
- themaninthedark 4y ago
  Demilitarized Zone Basically saying that the agreed upon norms are acceptable to some women because they feel like they benefit from the effects. Another example would be monogamy, women will treat another woman that cheats harshly because of the worry that their partner will cheat. By policing their in-group they reduce the risk to themselves.
gjsman-1000 4y ago
> Modesty was developed across multiple societies as a way of equalizing physical attractiveness. I would argue that this is forgetting how violent the world used to be. Most people were farmers, which meant most men were stronger than they are today. Meanwhile, women didn't have bras, tampons, or other hygiene products because they didn't exist yet. There was also no DNA testing if you were attacked, no cameras in the area to witness the car, or the attacker running. If you were attacked, say, in a farmer's field with nobody nearby, it was only your word against his. And if he was smart and masked, and you didn't know who it was... well, sucks to be you in every way. Good luck finding a husband. Remember there were also no government programs either - your social circle and (sometimes, depending on era) charity organizations were your only recourse. For those who didn't have a good social circle, all you need to do is crack open Oliver Twist or another Charles Dickens book. So, if you were a woman, dressing immodestly was (not to be victim-blaming) asking for trouble (especially as that was a trait that only prostitutes in the era tended to do), as was being alone anywhere, or even just not being at home - and if trouble happened to you, seeking redress could be quite difficult if not completely impossible, in part due to the lack of things we have today. So, you probably didn't want to do that...
nashashmi 4y ago
Wow, so you know precisely where and why modesty came into being? To equalize attractiveness? Modesty is a cover, a hide, a restriction while also an emphasis. Sometimes modesty is itself an attraction.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
Well, isn't there a whole competition about the size if genitalia between guys? That doesn't seem so different from physical attractiveness competition
- techdragon 4y ago
  Don’t forget the terrible dynamics at play between having a full head of hair (hair density in terms of grown follicles per unit area to be technical about it) as an obvious signal of youth/health while there’s also the common perception that bald men are better lovers, which is backed up by research and makes obvious sense since the hair loss is (outside of more specific circumstances) caused by testosterone slowly killing the hair follicles on the scalp and higher testosterone levels being well associated with mate selection not just in people but across primates in general!
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    There was also something with zinc being used to produce hair and something good in love making (I do not remember if it was on the semen or elsewhere). So less hair = more zinc for that other thing

bruceb 4y ago

When the media puts most of your value on looks it not surprising some women might feel like it is a competition.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
On the other hand, remember that these modesty norms have existed in many cultures (particularly colder countries), for millennia. Long before there was a "media" creating competition.
- legitster 4y ago
  > particularly colder countries Keep in mind average breast size correlates with colder weather.
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    What is the correlation? Cold weather = large breasts, or the other way round? Or some non linear relation with a maximum somewhere?
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
The media? Aren't we hard-wired to seek attractive mates because attractiveness is correlated with good health and genetics?
- bruceb 4y ago
  No one is saying physical attractive was not valued before. But it is super charged by some media as basically the main value of a women. Then a literally unattainable image pushed as the ideal via photoshopped pics an video.
xchip 4y ago
That is only if you decided to believe in what media says. Pick your priest.
- nix23 4y ago
  Country/Culture of media origin is also important ;)
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  The media serves as a coordinator in what would otherwise be a social coordination problem. Imagine for a moment, the game of "social value" and it's strategies. What is the Schelling point of such a game? Hard to say, right? It's easy however, to understand that a whichever the dominant strategy is, the cost/reward of following the dominant strategy on average is fairly high given the material constraints that any "social value" game would have.[1] In fact, choosing a a non-dominant "priest" has an opportunity cost associated with it over choosing a "dominant priest". In our society, media functions as a "dominant priest" or rather a communicator of the dominant strategy. Directing someone to choose a non-dominant strategy is a bit pointless to the people who are instead asking, "shouldn't we be playing a different game instead?" 1. As to what these are is left as an exercise to the reader.

SkyMarshal 4y ago

DMZ?

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Demilitarized Zone (for example, border between North Korea and South Korea). Edit @Brian_K_White: I don't either. Bad analogy.
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  I don't get how that would apply in that context.
  - SkyMarshal 4y ago
    Yeah, I know what that DMZ is, just not how it was meant in this context. But themaninthedark explains it well above.
themaninthedark 4y ago
Demilitarized Zone Basically saying that the agreed upon norms are acceptable to some women because they feel like they benefit from the effects. Another example would be monogamy, women will treat another woman that cheats harshly because of the worry that their partner will cheat. By policing their in-group they reduce the risk to themselves.

gjsman-1000 4y ago

> Modesty was developed across multiple societies as a way of equalizing physical attractiveness. I would argue that this is forgetting how violent the world used to be. Most people were farmers, which meant most men were stronger than they are today. Meanwhile, women didn't have bras, tampons, or other hygiene products because they didn't exist yet. There was also no DNA testing if you were attacked, no cameras in the area to witness the car, or the attacker running. If you were attacked, say, in a farmer's field with nobody nearby, it was only your word against his. And if he was smart and masked, and you didn't know who it was... well, sucks to be you in every way. Good luck finding a husband. Remember there were also no government programs either - your social circle and (sometimes, depending on era) charity organizations were your only recourse. For those who didn't have a good social circle, all you need to do is crack open Oliver Twist or another Charles Dickens book. So, if you were a woman, dressing immodestly was (not to be victim-blaming) asking for trouble (especially as that was a trait that only prostitutes in the era tended to do), as was being alone anywhere, or even just not being at home - and if trouble happened to you, seeking redress could be quite difficult if not completely impossible, in part due to the lack of things we have today. So, you probably didn't want to do that...

nashashmi 4y ago

Wow, so you know precisely where and why modesty came into being? To equalize attractiveness? Modesty is a cover, a hide, a restriction while also an emphasis. Sometimes modesty is itself an attraction.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

Well, isn't there a whole competition about the size if genitalia between guys? That doesn't seem so different from physical attractiveness competition

techdragon 4y ago
Don’t forget the terrible dynamics at play between having a full head of hair (hair density in terms of grown follicles per unit area to be technical about it) as an obvious signal of youth/health while there’s also the common perception that bald men are better lovers, which is backed up by research and makes obvious sense since the hair loss is (outside of more specific circumstances) caused by testosterone slowly killing the hair follicles on the scalp and higher testosterone levels being well associated with mate selection not just in people but across primates in general!
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  There was also something with zinc being used to produce hair and something good in love making (I do not remember if it was on the semen or elsewhere). So less hair = more zinc for that other thing