5 ms·

> For example, sometimes you'll be saying something in English to a Japanese person. They have no idea what you're saying, but because they're such good listene

> For example, sometimes you'll be saying something in English to a Japanese person. They have no idea what you're saying, but because they're such good listeners, they're saying "yes, yes, yes" to everything you say (because that's the translation of hai, right?). At some point, you ask them an important question: "Do you want to join my Starcraft2 team?" They say "yes" not because they want to join your team (they really don't) but because they have no clue what you're saying (and they're good listeners). That explains a lot honestly

ant6n 4y ago
Yes!
antihero 4y ago
That makes you a terrible listener though. Fake listening is worse than just straight up ignoring someone.
- jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  Did you read the article? In Japanese culture, those sorts of exclamations are an integral part of good listening. Its probably pretty hard to just switch that off when you're put in a context with a language barrier
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    Well, they aren't wrong. Nonconfrontation + mimed politeness are better descriptions than "good listening" when you bluff your way in a convo you don't understand. Reminds me of the "Place, Japan" meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan). The first panel can have an American not understanding a foreign language next to a disgusted soyjack, and the second panel has a Japanese guy smiling while he doesn't understand a word next to a "clap clap" retard soyjack screaming "amazing listener!"
  - iherbig 4y ago
    You and antihero are talking about two different kinds of "good listening," though. "Being a good listener" has both a practical and a social component. You are referring to the social component ("in Japanese culture..."). The tenets of social interactions in Japanese culture which have been ingrained in speakers of the language to one extent or another. The performance aspect of the act of listening. antihero is talking about the practical form of "good listening" when they say "that makes you a terrible listener though." That is, what is the function of "listening" in a social interaction? I would hazard a guess that they believe the function of listening is to understand what another person is saying. And by that benchmark, an individual who is not actually reaching any sort of understanding is a "bad listener" irrespective of how successful they are at performing the cultural/social component of the act of listening. There's the additional implication that because signaling you are understanding when you are not leads to misunderstanding (which is the antithesis of the intended function of listening), it makes the listener an even worse quality listener than if they were not performing.
    - hasdha 4y ago
      I agree, they are using two different definitions of "good listening". I'd say the "fit in with the social interaction" one is usually the most relevant. This reminds me of Wittgenstein's "language games"[1]. Maybe I'm butchering Wittgenstein's thought, but my understanding is that language works in a social situation as a game, as an activity where things "work ok" or don't work ok. It's not about me communicating my inner mental state and you making sure you're understanding my inner mental state (Wittgenstein's argument is that this is not generally possible, but also maybe it's not even what we usually care about) Of course, when you're in a specific setting (such as doing science or a police investigation) the other definition can be more relevant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)#:~:text=A%20language%2Dgame%20(German%3A,the%20%22game%22%20being%20played https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)#:~:....
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Reminds me of the horror of living in a foreign country, bluffing that you're understanding a convo, and then getting asked a question that you didn't even know was a question and you certainly don't know the context.
  - antihero 4y ago
    This is why it’s important to develop the skill of being able to communicate your completely understandable weakness.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Japanese is a turn-based strategy game rather than an RTS. I'm joking a little. But interrupting someone is almost unspeakably rude in Japanese, whereas 'Yes! Yes...yes. Yes! I'm terribly sorry, I couldn't understand any of that. Bye!' would be common in Japanese but infuriating to many Americans.
exq 4y ago
I'm reminded of the balloon boy case years ago. The mother was Japanese and they didn't get her a proper translator even though she had a very basic level of English. She kept saying yes to the detective during the interview and he took that to mean confirmation not "I'm following along with what you're saying". Caused a lot of problems.
bee_rider 4y ago
Is "hai" closer to something like "ok" or "a'right" than "yes"?
- CobrastanJorji 4y ago
  Yes, except it's more formal. Based on tone, it can mean "what?" or "yes" or indicate hesitation, etc. If you say it really sharply, it can mean agreement, but "ええ" (the sound the Fonz makes) is probably more equivalent to English's "yes."
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Like so much in Japanese, it depends how you say it. It could be a simple acknowledgement as you describe, or it could be very emphatic to say 'you are important and I'm paying full attention' (to a teacher, parent, or official), or it could just be a 'yes' - but usually answering a question would be 'yes, that's what happened' or something similarly specific. 'Naruhudo' (usually translated as 'I see' is a common way to politely acknowledge hearing information while reserving agreement.
  - glandium 4y ago
    Correction: naruhodo instead of naruhudo. Beware that it's not exactly polite, it has a condescending tone, so it's better to avoid using it with superiors.

ant6n 4y ago

Yes!

antihero 4y ago

That makes you a terrible listener though. Fake listening is worse than just straight up ignoring someone.

jobs_throwaway 4y ago
Did you read the article? In Japanese culture, those sorts of exclamations are an integral part of good listening. Its probably pretty hard to just switch that off when you're put in a context with a language barrier
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Well, they aren't wrong. Nonconfrontation + mimed politeness are better descriptions than "good listening" when you bluff your way in a convo you don't understand. Reminds me of the "Place, Japan" meme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/place-japan). The first panel can have an American not understanding a foreign language next to a disgusted soyjack, and the second panel has a Japanese guy smiling while he doesn't understand a word next to a "clap clap" retard soyjack screaming "amazing listener!"
- iherbig 4y ago
  You and antihero are talking about two different kinds of "good listening," though. "Being a good listener" has both a practical and a social component. You are referring to the social component ("in Japanese culture..."). The tenets of social interactions in Japanese culture which have been ingrained in speakers of the language to one extent or another. The performance aspect of the act of listening. antihero is talking about the practical form of "good listening" when they say "that makes you a terrible listener though." That is, what is the function of "listening" in a social interaction? I would hazard a guess that they believe the function of listening is to understand what another person is saying. And by that benchmark, an individual who is not actually reaching any sort of understanding is a "bad listener" irrespective of how successful they are at performing the cultural/social component of the act of listening. There's the additional implication that because signaling you are understanding when you are not leads to misunderstanding (which is the antithesis of the intended function of listening), it makes the listener an even worse quality listener than if they were not performing.
  - hasdha 4y ago
    I agree, they are using two different definitions of "good listening". I'd say the "fit in with the social interaction" one is usually the most relevant. This reminds me of Wittgenstein's "language games"[1]. Maybe I'm butchering Wittgenstein's thought, but my understanding is that language works in a social situation as a game, as an activity where things "work ok" or don't work ok. It's not about me communicating my inner mental state and you making sure you're understanding my inner mental state (Wittgenstein's argument is that this is not generally possible, but also maybe it's not even what we usually care about) Of course, when you're in a specific setting (such as doing science or a police investigation) the other definition can be more relevant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)#:~:text=A%20language%2Dgame%20(German%3A,the%20%22game%22%20being%20played https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy)#:~:....
hombre_fatal 4y ago
Reminds me of the horror of living in a foreign country, bluffing that you're understanding a convo, and then getting asked a question that you didn't even know was a question and you certainly don't know the context.
- antihero 4y ago
  This is why it’s important to develop the skill of being able to communicate your completely understandable weakness.
anigbrowl 4y ago
Japanese is a turn-based strategy game rather than an RTS. I'm joking a little. But interrupting someone is almost unspeakably rude in Japanese, whereas 'Yes! Yes...yes. Yes! I'm terribly sorry, I couldn't understand any of that. Bye!' would be common in Japanese but infuriating to many Americans.

exq 4y ago

I'm reminded of the balloon boy case years ago. The mother was Japanese and they didn't get her a proper translator even though she had a very basic level of English. She kept saying yes to the detective during the interview and he took that to mean confirmation not "I'm following along with what you're saying". Caused a lot of problems.

bee_rider 4y ago

Is "hai" closer to something like "ok" or "a'right" than "yes"?

CobrastanJorji 4y ago
Yes, except it's more formal. Based on tone, it can mean "what?" or "yes" or indicate hesitation, etc. If you say it really sharply, it can mean agreement, but "ええ" (the sound the Fonz makes) is probably more equivalent to English's "yes."
anigbrowl 4y ago
Like so much in Japanese, it depends how you say it. It could be a simple acknowledgement as you describe, or it could be very emphatic to say 'you are important and I'm paying full attention' (to a teacher, parent, or official), or it could just be a 'yes' - but usually answering a question would be 'yes, that's what happened' or something similarly specific. 'Naruhudo' (usually translated as 'I see' is a common way to politely acknowledge hearing information while reserving agreement.
- glandium 4y ago
  Correction: naruhodo instead of naruhudo. Beware that it's not exactly polite, it has a condescending tone, so it's better to avoid using it with superiors.