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If you are working for a company doing SCRUM then you will only just work on stories. That's it. If you want anything else from your programming career then y

If you are working for a company doing SCRUM then you will only just work on stories. That's it. If you want anything else from your programming career then you'll need to do it yourself.

OJFord 4y ago
I don't understand why it seemingly doesn't bother more people, always feels like that 'there are dozens of us!' meme when something like this is posted here. Scrum is depressing, it makes miserable factory-like work (or makes miserable factory-like work unapologetically transparent, perhaps). I can't think of any other profession that it wouldn't shock me to hear they work like this.
- jlokier 4y ago
  Companies that are very Scrum focused aren't actually all that common in my experience. If your job is depressing because of it, it may be time to look around. Remember to ask how the new place does things, so that you're not stuck with more of the same.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    Not in the sense of 'scrum masters' and certification and all that - that sounds bad but in a different way and I've never experienced it. I just mean 'sprints' and 'tickets' and 'points' and 'stand-ups' really. (Which I assume isn't what you're saying isn't that common, certainly seems it from.. HN I suppose.)
    - Ensorceled 4y ago
      How much time are you spending on these artifacts? Sprint planning and 'tickets' should take at most a few hours a sprint for developers (my effort is much higher, of course), standups are 15 minutes a day, points are just estimates.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        The vast majority doesn't behave like this in practice. Inb4 "That's not Scrum" yes, we know.
        Ensorceled 4y ago
        Right, I'm trying to lead the OP there :-) I've worked, briefly as a contractor, in one these places before: full day sprint planning, 3 hour retrospectives, 1-2 hour standups, breakdowns of simple stories into sub stories etc. etc. ... but I didn't blame scrum and points for the fact I was miserable.
        OJFord 4y ago
        I think your point is kind of what I was alluding to with the 'or makes it [i.e. it exists without it] unapologetically transparent' parenthetical? Certainly it's not 'scrum' per se that bothers me - I was carefully not saying 'agile' because I think that's fine it's just the typical method of 'doing it' that I meant, but seem to have fallen into a different trap in the process - but it is the breaking down of the job into actionable work pieces, 'tickets', and some of the ceremony around that, whether strictly 'scrum' or not. But that's just me right, obviously some (lots of) people like it! My initial comment was that it's surprising (to me) how few seem to not like it, so I'm perfectly aware that's just my (and some few others') opinion.
        Ensorceled 4y ago
        > But that's just me right, obviously some (lots of) people like it! My initial comment was that it's surprising (to me) how few seem to not like it, so I'm perfectly aware that's just my (and some few others') opinion. I guess it's a continuum ... I have people on my team right now that are working on a single story, other people who have a few dozen this sprint. If your team is breaking down what would be a single story on my team ... I could see that being annoying. Now, the developer working on that story has a breakdown of tasks that they are managing as sub items in the story, but that's not getting managed with story points or any other heavy weight system.
    - jlokier 4y ago
      > I just mean 'sprints' and 'tickets' and 'points' and 'stand-ups' really. (Which I assume isn't what you're saying isn't that common, certainly seems it from.. HN I suppose.) Those are not common in my experience either. Perhaps I've just avoided working at depressing places :-) I've never worked somewhere which actually named things 'stand-ups', 'points', 'stories', 'retros', or even 'sprints'. I'm familiar with the concepts, both from general reading, and thanks to someone who taught me all about Scrum, which was enough to put me off both Scrum and it's perverted form of Agile. If I hear those things mentioned in an interview, I soon have more questions, because there's "good Agile" and "bad Agile". Sprints have occurred, in that there have been places with regular meeting and review cycles. That can work really well, imho. But even then, from the sound of it I've avoided the kinds of places where people feel under constant 2-weekly pressure to count up story points and highlight competitive ticket metrics. I have a feeling I'll be starting at a place like that soon though. They use Jira, require a ticket for every PR, and by the sound of it are doomed to take a very long time to do anything. The tickets are written for accountability and reporting every change to management, so not written for developers. The approach smells like an anti-pattern to me. I don't expect to stay long; it's just a contract. I wouldn't choose a place like that for a long-term position, but I'm looking forward to the experience to find out what it's like with an open mind. I was hired as an interim team lead, but politics already changed what the role is since signing, and it's also been made clear that TLs there don't get to decide how anything is actually done. We'll see. I tend to bring new energy to a system.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  > Scrum is depressing, it makes miserable factory-like work I've used scrum while building cool VR tools for Architects, my Research Scientist was developing new algorithms and we were building stuff like real time collaboration with view tracking and hot spot overlays, all in a scrum framework. This is like saying "office chairs makes miserable factory-like work", Scrum is just a management tool. If your manager is making your life miserable, that's not scrums fault.
- peruvian 4y ago
  Because most people are OK with getting a generous paycheck every two weeks for work they don't find too stressful. They can have fun outside of the 9-5.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
RamblingCTO 4y ago
What has scrum got to do with it? You can still have month-long tasks that are broken down. You just need scrum masters/product owners/managers who accept this as a viable way of working. We certainly do. Also, stories spanning multiple sprints also happen. It's always just a question of assigning resources efficiently and planning the tickets properly. /e: also I'm very interested in what your specific "anything else" would be.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Basically, nothing in SCRUM helps empowering the grunts outside their own bubble, but SCRUM gives a lot of feel good things for management to expect from the bubble of grunts. It does nothing to solve fundamental issues inherently. But these fundamental issues are well known, so any method not addressing them is rather weak by default.
  - RamblingCTO 4y ago
    Hm, I don't agree and see no real arguments here, sorry. I'll move on then, but thank you for the comment! I really hope you find the working environment you thrive in.
  - kitsune_ 4y ago
    A slightly exaggerated point of view: but in a way, the problem with Scrum and Agile is that they have been appropriated by non-tech people because tech is where the money is at. If it wasn't Agile, it would probably be something else. I know "but that's not agile" is a tired meme at this point, but if you read something like for instance the pattern work by guys like Jim Coplien and Sutherland [1], then Scrum as outlined by these communities of practices sounds pretty sensible. Just some random excerpts: > Use Small Teams of people working on serialized work rather than striving for false parallelism. > The Development Team organizes itself to get its work Done. The Development Team is solely responsible for how it does its work. > Explicitly allot time for interrupts and do not allow more work than fits within the allotment. > Create ad-hoc “birds of a feather” groups for each area of significant enterprise core competency or developer interest, where interested parties can trade notes on technologies, domain knowledge, and processes that are key to enterprise advancement. etc. [1] http://scrumbook.org/ http://scrumbook.org/

If you are working for a company doing SCRUM then you will only just work on stories. That's it. If you want anything else from your programming career then you'll need to do it yourself.

OJFord 4y ago

I don't understand why it seemingly doesn't bother more people, always feels like that 'there are dozens of us!' meme when something like this is posted here. Scrum is depressing, it makes miserable factory-like work (or makes miserable factory-like work unapologetically transparent, perhaps). I can't think of any other profession that it wouldn't shock me to hear they work like this.

jlokier 4y ago
Companies that are very Scrum focused aren't actually all that common in my experience. If your job is depressing because of it, it may be time to look around. Remember to ask how the new place does things, so that you're not stuck with more of the same.
- OJFord 4y ago
  Not in the sense of 'scrum masters' and certification and all that - that sounds bad but in a different way and I've never experienced it. I just mean 'sprints' and 'tickets' and 'points' and 'stand-ups' really. (Which I assume isn't what you're saying isn't that common, certainly seems it from.. HN I suppose.)
  - Ensorceled 4y ago
    How much time are you spending on these artifacts? Sprint planning and 'tickets' should take at most a few hours a sprint for developers (my effort is much higher, of course), standups are 15 minutes a day, points are just estimates.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      The vast majority doesn't behave like this in practice. Inb4 "That's not Scrum" yes, we know.
      - Ensorceled 4y ago
        Right, I'm trying to lead the OP there :-) I've worked, briefly as a contractor, in one these places before: full day sprint planning, 3 hour retrospectives, 1-2 hour standups, breakdowns of simple stories into sub stories etc. etc. ... but I didn't blame scrum and points for the fact I was miserable.
        OJFord 4y ago
        I think your point is kind of what I was alluding to with the 'or makes it [i.e. it exists without it] unapologetically transparent' parenthetical? Certainly it's not 'scrum' per se that bothers me - I was carefully not saying 'agile' because I think that's fine it's just the typical method of 'doing it' that I meant, but seem to have fallen into a different trap in the process - but it is the breaking down of the job into actionable work pieces, 'tickets', and some of the ceremony around that, whether strictly 'scrum' or not. But that's just me right, obviously some (lots of) people like it! My initial comment was that it's surprising (to me) how few seem to not like it, so I'm perfectly aware that's just my (and some few others') opinion.
        Ensorceled 4y ago
        > But that's just me right, obviously some (lots of) people like it! My initial comment was that it's surprising (to me) how few seem to not like it, so I'm perfectly aware that's just my (and some few others') opinion. I guess it's a continuum ... I have people on my team right now that are working on a single story, other people who have a few dozen this sprint. If your team is breaking down what would be a single story on my team ... I could see that being annoying. Now, the developer working on that story has a breakdown of tasks that they are managing as sub items in the story, but that's not getting managed with story points or any other heavy weight system.
  - jlokier 4y ago
    > I just mean 'sprints' and 'tickets' and 'points' and 'stand-ups' really. (Which I assume isn't what you're saying isn't that common, certainly seems it from.. HN I suppose.) Those are not common in my experience either. Perhaps I've just avoided working at depressing places :-) I've never worked somewhere which actually named things 'stand-ups', 'points', 'stories', 'retros', or even 'sprints'. I'm familiar with the concepts, both from general reading, and thanks to someone who taught me all about Scrum, which was enough to put me off both Scrum and it's perverted form of Agile. If I hear those things mentioned in an interview, I soon have more questions, because there's "good Agile" and "bad Agile". Sprints have occurred, in that there have been places with regular meeting and review cycles. That can work really well, imho. But even then, from the sound of it I've avoided the kinds of places where people feel under constant 2-weekly pressure to count up story points and highlight competitive ticket metrics. I have a feeling I'll be starting at a place like that soon though. They use Jira, require a ticket for every PR, and by the sound of it are doomed to take a very long time to do anything. The tickets are written for accountability and reporting every change to management, so not written for developers. The approach smells like an anti-pattern to me. I don't expect to stay long; it's just a contract. I wouldn't choose a place like that for a long-term position, but I'm looking forward to the experience to find out what it's like with an open mind. I was hired as an interim team lead, but politics already changed what the role is since signing, and it's also been made clear that TLs there don't get to decide how anything is actually done. We'll see. I tend to bring new energy to a system.
Ensorceled 4y ago
> Scrum is depressing, it makes miserable factory-like work I've used scrum while building cool VR tools for Architects, my Research Scientist was developing new algorithms and we were building stuff like real time collaboration with view tracking and hot spot overlays, all in a scrum framework. This is like saying "office chairs makes miserable factory-like work", Scrum is just a management tool. If your manager is making your life miserable, that's not scrums fault.
peruvian 4y ago
Because most people are OK with getting a generous paycheck every two weeks for work they don't find too stressful. They can have fun outside of the 9-5.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

RamblingCTO 4y ago

What has scrum got to do with it? You can still have month-long tasks that are broken down. You just need scrum masters/product owners/managers who accept this as a viable way of working. We certainly do. Also, stories spanning multiple sprints also happen. It's always just a question of assigning resources efficiently and planning the tickets properly. /e: also I'm very interested in what your specific "anything else" would be.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Basically, nothing in SCRUM helps empowering the grunts outside their own bubble, but SCRUM gives a lot of feel good things for management to expect from the bubble of grunts. It does nothing to solve fundamental issues inherently. But these fundamental issues are well known, so any method not addressing them is rather weak by default.
- RamblingCTO 4y ago
  Hm, I don't agree and see no real arguments here, sorry. I'll move on then, but thank you for the comment! I really hope you find the working environment you thrive in.
- kitsune_ 4y ago
  A slightly exaggerated point of view: but in a way, the problem with Scrum and Agile is that they have been appropriated by non-tech people because tech is where the money is at. If it wasn't Agile, it would probably be something else. I know "but that's not agile" is a tired meme at this point, but if you read something like for instance the pattern work by guys like Jim Coplien and Sutherland [1], then Scrum as outlined by these communities of practices sounds pretty sensible. Just some random excerpts: > Use Small Teams of people working on serialized work rather than striving for false parallelism. > The Development Team organizes itself to get its work Done. The Development Team is solely responsible for how it does its work. > Explicitly allot time for interrupts and do not allow more work than fits within the allotment. > Create ad-hoc “birds of a feather” groups for each area of significant enterprise core competency or developer interest, where interested parties can trade notes on technologies, domain knowledge, and processes that are key to enterprise advancement. etc. [1] http://scrumbook.org/ http://scrumbook.org/