4 ms·

San Francisco has its heart in the right place and is struggling to grapple with the reality that lax drug laws invites the wrong kind of people to the city.

cronix 4y ago
So does basically legalizing theft for under $950, choosing not to prosecute "property crimes" and so-called bail reform where most people are just released back into society after arrest. All sound good until put into practice.
- YoyoyoPCP 4y ago
  Correct. Absolutely devastating to small business owners. I've heard stories that SF is so inundated with car theft that it has created a portal that automatically approves car break in claims for insurance.
  - cft 4y ago
    I ran a bootstrapped software company in SF till i got the hell out. Here's a video i made in my building https://youtu.be/xRjuii_jtgM https://youtu.be/xRjuii_jtgM
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  So does basically legalizing theft for under $950 Yeah, no. Theft under $950 is still theft and it's still illegal. If you're whining about the felony threshold $950 puts it pretty much middle of the road compared to the other forty-nine states. Hell, the threshold in Texas is over $2,000 and has been that high since before Prop. 47 was passed. Find another boogeyman already.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Texas prosecutes misdemeanors. Californian cities essentially do not.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Those other states still prosecute though. And although a misdemeanor isn't as big of a deal as a felony, having to go to court and deal with probation etc. acts as a huge deterrent that you don't get if something just isn't prosecuted.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Those other states still prosecute though. Boudin prosecuted most cases that were brought to him. In fact he prosecuted a larger percentage than his successor has so far. Boudin also prosecuted police misconduct which made him a lot of enemies.
      - diebeforei485 4y ago
        This is nonsense. He filed charges then let them off. That's not prosecuting.
trentnix 4y ago
The road to hell is paved with good intentions…
ratsmack 4y ago
>San Francisco prosecutors will no longer ask judges for cash bail as a condition for the pretrial detention of defendants I wonder if the police have become apathetic about making arrests. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/sf-da-boudin-announces-citywide-elimination-of-cash-bail/2219714/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/sf-da-boudin-announces...
andrepd 4y ago
- YoyoyoPCP 4y ago
  Fair enough, but I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been pretty abundantly documented over the last several years.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    That permissive drug enforcement policy increases crime? I never read any study to that effect, much the opposite.
    - ratsmack 4y ago
      It's pretty well established that addictive drugs cause users to commit petty theft to support their drug habit.
      - tchaffee 4y ago
        Switzerland had a huge heroin problem. They fixed it by decriminalization and treating it as the medical problem it really is. You can now get the addictive drugs injected at your doctor's office. Both petty theft and addiction plummeted. So it's not the addictive drugs causing these things. It's the policy around drugs that is causing it. See also how Portugal reduced a widespread heroin and crime problem.
        ratsmack 4y ago
        1) You can now get the addictive drugs injected at your doctor's office. 2) ... and addiction plummeted. Hmmmmmmm... It doesn't make sense.
        jcranmer 4y ago
        Why? Here are several plausible causative links: * Addicts are more effectively targetable for interventions to reduce or eliminate addiction. * A safer environment may reduce other pressures that cause addicts to keep resorting to addiction. * Supervised injections may let you go onto a schedule that lets you slowly wean yourself off of addiction. (e.g., using naloxone and methadone in lieu of heroin).
cavisne 4y ago
They really don't, and it's important for people to know that or they might be under the illusion it will be fixed at some point. The people who vote in SF and run the government there are obsessed with punishing some undefined "privileged" set of people who are somehow causing all the issues. Of course they are themselves highly privileged so it's a self hatred. It will keep getting worse.
tchaffee 4y ago
Switzerland and Portugal are the counter examples that prove you wrong. Both decriminalized drugs and treat them as the medical problem that they really are. The heroin problem was especially bad in Switzerland and you could find homeless addicts all over public places.
- cjwilliams 4y ago
  Yes but they dont allow open drug scenes. And they dont allow the rampant theft and dysfunction that comes with those encampments
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    That's not right. It's not that they don't allow open drug scenes. In Lisbon you can easily find the part of town where everyone is smoking weed outside. With Switzerland if you want your free heroin it's at the doctor's office and you get it injected there. So it's not a matter of not allowing it. Addicts not surprisingly go where the drugs are. Which is inside now. Back when they treated it as a crime problem they would shut down outdoor drug camps and the camps would just reappear somewhere else nearby. The theft went down because the addicts don't need to pay. It's not about better enforcement as you implied. The theft also went down because a lot of the addicts are now employed. As long as you can get your daily injections, most heroin addicts are highly functional. Dr. Halsted - one of the founders of John Hopkins hospital and a hard working doctor - was addicted to morphine for most of his long adult life.
    - origin_path 4y ago
      Not quite - the Swiss system much prefers substitutions than giving out actual heroin. And the police do enforce drug laws, mostly against the dealer networks but also against individuals for possession for other drugs. Also it's not like heroin is legalized. You must have been an addict for at least two years to get it from the health system, and it's a last resort, you must have failed at least two other addiction treatments first. The Swiss approach was also somewhat specific to heroin. If you read about it, it's always heroin that's being discussed. The policy could work because there aren't huge numbers of addicts and the number has been in natural decline for a long time. Addicts are mostly old so the population is shrinking, the cost of giving them free drugs is low. Heroin addiction was a phase, people moved onto different drugs now, but the decline is often attributed entirely to this policy. So what do we see if we look at e.g. crystal meth or cocaine? Not so successful there. Swiss cities dominate cocaine consumption in Europe: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/drug-use_why-swiss-cities-dominate-the-cocaine-hit-parade/44736466 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/drug-use_why-swiss-citi... Numbers of addicts are growing and the police do enforce the law, albeit in Neuchâtel for the first meth offense (of possession) you can get out of it if you attend some counselling sessions. After that it's back to prosecution. https://www.thelocal.ch/20161003/neuchtel-dubbed-crystal-meth-capital-of-switzerland/ https://www.thelocal.ch/20161003/neuchtel-dubbed-crystal-met... https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/crystal-meth_power-cut-uncovers-swiss--breaking-bad--style-meth-lab/44093138 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/crystal-meth_power-cut-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/05/swiss-police-seize-cocaine-nespresso-factory https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/05/swiss-police-s... They aren't handing out crystal meth, suffice it to say. There is also the ethical issues involved with forcing people who stayed clean to pay for other people's addictions, which is what this boils down to. Of course it can still be rational when considering other costs but that doesn't change the underlying ethical issues.

cronix 4y ago

So does basically legalizing theft for under $950, choosing not to prosecute "property crimes" and so-called bail reform where most people are just released back into society after arrest. All sound good until put into practice.

YoyoyoPCP 4y ago
Correct. Absolutely devastating to small business owners. I've heard stories that SF is so inundated with car theft that it has created a portal that automatically approves car break in claims for insurance.
- cft 4y ago
  I ran a bootstrapped software company in SF till i got the hell out. Here's a video i made in my building https://youtu.be/xRjuii_jtgM https://youtu.be/xRjuii_jtgM
inferiorhuman 4y ago
So does basically legalizing theft for under $950 Yeah, no. Theft under $950 is still theft and it's still illegal. If you're whining about the felony threshold $950 puts it pretty much middle of the road compared to the other forty-nine states. Hell, the threshold in Texas is over $2,000 and has been that high since before Prop. 47 was passed. Find another boogeyman already.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Texas prosecutes misdemeanors. Californian cities essentially do not.
- yucky 4y ago
  Those other states still prosecute though. And although a misdemeanor isn't as big of a deal as a felony, having to go to court and deal with probation etc. acts as a huge deterrent that you don't get if something just isn't prosecuted.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    Those other states still prosecute though. Boudin prosecuted most cases that were brought to him. In fact he prosecuted a larger percentage than his successor has so far. Boudin also prosecuted police misconduct which made him a lot of enemies.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      This is nonsense. He filed charges then let them off. That's not prosecuting.

trentnix 4y ago

The road to hell is paved with good intentions…

ratsmack 4y ago

>San Francisco prosecutors will no longer ask judges for cash bail as a condition for the pretrial detention of defendants I wonder if the police have become apathetic about making arrests. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/sf-da-boudin-announces-citywide-elimination-of-cash-bail/2219714/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/sf-da-boudin-announces...

andrepd 4y ago

YoyoyoPCP 4y ago
Fair enough, but I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been pretty abundantly documented over the last several years.
- andrepd 4y ago
  That permissive drug enforcement policy increases crime? I never read any study to that effect, much the opposite.
  - ratsmack 4y ago
    It's pretty well established that addictive drugs cause users to commit petty theft to support their drug habit.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      Switzerland had a huge heroin problem. They fixed it by decriminalization and treating it as the medical problem it really is. You can now get the addictive drugs injected at your doctor's office. Both petty theft and addiction plummeted. So it's not the addictive drugs causing these things. It's the policy around drugs that is causing it. See also how Portugal reduced a widespread heroin and crime problem.
      - ratsmack 4y ago
        1) You can now get the addictive drugs injected at your doctor's office. 2) ... and addiction plummeted. Hmmmmmmm... It doesn't make sense.
        jcranmer 4y ago
        Why? Here are several plausible causative links: * Addicts are more effectively targetable for interventions to reduce or eliminate addiction. * A safer environment may reduce other pressures that cause addicts to keep resorting to addiction. * Supervised injections may let you go onto a schedule that lets you slowly wean yourself off of addiction. (e.g., using naloxone and methadone in lieu of heroin).

cavisne 4y ago

They really don't, and it's important for people to know that or they might be under the illusion it will be fixed at some point. The people who vote in SF and run the government there are obsessed with punishing some undefined "privileged" set of people who are somehow causing all the issues. Of course they are themselves highly privileged so it's a self hatred. It will keep getting worse.

tchaffee 4y ago

Switzerland and Portugal are the counter examples that prove you wrong. Both decriminalized drugs and treat them as the medical problem that they really are. The heroin problem was especially bad in Switzerland and you could find homeless addicts all over public places.

cjwilliams 4y ago
Yes but they dont allow open drug scenes. And they dont allow the rampant theft and dysfunction that comes with those encampments
- tchaffee 4y ago
  That's not right. It's not that they don't allow open drug scenes. In Lisbon you can easily find the part of town where everyone is smoking weed outside. With Switzerland if you want your free heroin it's at the doctor's office and you get it injected there. So it's not a matter of not allowing it. Addicts not surprisingly go where the drugs are. Which is inside now. Back when they treated it as a crime problem they would shut down outdoor drug camps and the camps would just reappear somewhere else nearby. The theft went down because the addicts don't need to pay. It's not about better enforcement as you implied. The theft also went down because a lot of the addicts are now employed. As long as you can get your daily injections, most heroin addicts are highly functional. Dr. Halsted - one of the founders of John Hopkins hospital and a hard working doctor - was addicted to morphine for most of his long adult life.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    Not quite - the Swiss system much prefers substitutions than giving out actual heroin. And the police do enforce drug laws, mostly against the dealer networks but also against individuals for possession for other drugs. Also it's not like heroin is legalized. You must have been an addict for at least two years to get it from the health system, and it's a last resort, you must have failed at least two other addiction treatments first. The Swiss approach was also somewhat specific to heroin. If you read about it, it's always heroin that's being discussed. The policy could work because there aren't huge numbers of addicts and the number has been in natural decline for a long time. Addicts are mostly old so the population is shrinking, the cost of giving them free drugs is low. Heroin addiction was a phase, people moved onto different drugs now, but the decline is often attributed entirely to this policy. So what do we see if we look at e.g. crystal meth or cocaine? Not so successful there. Swiss cities dominate cocaine consumption in Europe: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/drug-use_why-swiss-cities-dominate-the-cocaine-hit-parade/44736466 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/drug-use_why-swiss-citi... Numbers of addicts are growing and the police do enforce the law, albeit in Neuchâtel for the first meth offense (of possession) you can get out of it if you attend some counselling sessions. After that it's back to prosecution. https://www.thelocal.ch/20161003/neuchtel-dubbed-crystal-meth-capital-of-switzerland/ https://www.thelocal.ch/20161003/neuchtel-dubbed-crystal-met... https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/crystal-meth_power-cut-uncovers-swiss--breaking-bad--style-meth-lab/44093138 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/crystal-meth_power-cut-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/05/swiss-police-seize-cocaine-nespresso-factory https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/05/swiss-police-s... They aren't handing out crystal meth, suffice it to say. There is also the ethical issues involved with forcing people who stayed clean to pay for other people's addictions, which is what this boils down to. Of course it can still be rational when considering other costs but that doesn't change the underlying ethical issues.