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The situation is similar with violas. There's a maker[0] who builds wildly asymmetric violas that have pretty good sound and are ergonomically excellent — very

The situation is similar with violas. There's a maker[0] who builds wildly asymmetric violas that have pretty good sound and are ergonomically excellent — very easy to play — but they're generally unwelcome in orchestras because their unorthodox appearance is distracting. Instrument makers consistently report that players will imagine all sorts of sound and playability problems when they try out an ugly instrument. I'm sure the author's guess about flute is correct: people like an instrument that looks right to them and to the audience. [0] http://www.rivinus-instruments.com/ http://www.rivinus-instruments.com/

skybrian 4y ago
Are violins and violas much different from an ergonomics perspective?
- jffry 4y ago
  Violas are larger than violins, which means they're also longer and heavier. Violins/violas are held up entirely by wedging them between your jaw and shoulder, so a short fat viola moves the weight closer and I imagine reduces the torque needed to hold it up. The shorter neck on the instrument also means you don't have to hold your tuning hand out so far (a similar torque issue) and it also means moving your hand out of first position to play higher notes is a shorter motion. edit: The viola is of course also thicker, which means maneuvering your tuning hand around it involves twisting your shoulder more. I imagine the unusual shape also improves that situation.
  - klipt 4y ago
    Maybe instead of playing violas like they're big violins, we should play them like they're small cellos? Might be ergonomically better?
    - stirfish 4y ago
      Violins, cellos etc come from the viola da braccio family (arm viola). I used to play the viola da gamba (leg viola), which comes in all sizes but you play them kinda like little cellos. They have six strings, frets, and you hold the bow a little differently, but even the small ones are played with it tucked between your knees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_da_braccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_da_braccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        The Viola da Gamba has a beautiful sound, but almost nobody plays them here in the US. The modern viola is too small to resonate well in its note range, but it's a compromise we make to keep it looking like a violin.
        tomcam 4y ago
        I just think of it as a throaty, smokey violin sound and feel like it lacks nothing, so it’s illuminating to think about from your perspective.
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        My sister is a professional violist, so I can't be too complimentary to the instrument. It has a very nice sound even though it doesn't resonate as well as the other string instruments.
      - bkev 4y ago
        A violist I knew had a viola from the 1500’s that was originally a viola da gamba that had been cut down a couple hundred years ago (somewhat; was still pretty large for a viola). Had purfling hearts on the bouts. Beautiful instrument.
    - JasonFruit 4y ago
      Carleen Maley Hutchins made a new 8-member family of violin-type instruments[0] which included a somewhat larger instrument tuned like a viola but played on an endpin like a 'cello. It sounds pretty good[1] and improves the ergonomics of fingering and shifting (though not so much bowing), but it has not seen much adoption because a) it has the "looks funny" factor, and b) it requires the violist who trained on a standard instrument to learn a new technical approach to both bowing and fingering. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_octet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_octet [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVh-kNmRcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVh-kNmRcA
      - klipt 4y ago
        > b) it requires the violist who trained on a standard instrument to learn a new technical approach to both bowing and fingering. Or just have cellists play them, instead of violinists. It seems Yo Yo Ma has played one without much difficulty!
tomcam 4y ago
Looks like it has tumors, but would love to try the 5 string. At $12k I feel obligated to level up my viola playing before springing that purchase on my lovely wife…
- bayindirh 4y ago
  When I read comments like these, I remember a quote from late friend of mine who was an industrial designer: > Ergonomics is ugly. He casually pinned these three words like he pinned something to a cork board.
  - jacobolus 4y ago
    Better might be to say: “unfamiliarity is ugly”. Making anything involves fitting constraints and prioritizing by some criteria. Ergonomics just means using human anatomy (capability, comfort, safety) as a deliberate constraint/criterion in tool design, instead of treating it as an afterthought (even when ignored, anatomy still has some kind of “veto” insofar as a tool can’t ever be entirely impossible to use). Starting from first principles with human capabilities and comfort as an explicit goal results in more effective designs which extend tool users’ capabilities further. I think it is incredibly beautiful to have tools shaped to match human bodies. After looking at a couple videos of these lovely ergonomic violas, every time I see a regular viola in the future I’m going to be seeing debilitating repetitive strain injuries.
romwell 4y ago
>There's a maker[0] who builds wildly asymmetric violas that have pretty good sound and are ergonomically excellent I mean... That instrument can sound like it's made by Gods in Heavens, but it looks like one of those Dali semi-molten clocks that got turned into a violin and would subtly message "kILL mEeeEe" through any music played through it. Aesthetics of musical instruments matter a lot, both to the performers and the audience.
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  Think about how differently you might feel about such an instrument if, like Don Ehrlich of the San Francisco Symphony, you were faced with either finding an instrument that you could play with your carpal tunnel or losing your position. That melty-looking viola might get awful pretty in a hurry.
  - romwell 4y ago
    Absolutely. But most people don't tend to think of things like that until they bite. Case in point, most people don't get an ergonomic mouse/keyboard until their hands start hurting.
- pfortuny 4y ago
  It is just because we are used to their shapes. The french horn is not exactly the paradigm of beauty. Or a player blowing into an oboe (it is difficult to imagine that gesture producing such a beautiful noise; does he need to make that face, really? Indeed, he does). The posture with the violin is one of the most awkward one could imagine, also. When those violas are played (as seen in the videos), the shape is least visible.
  - romwell 4y ago
    >It is just because we are used to their shapes. No, it's because it is very asymmetric, and we prefer symmetric shapes to asymmetric ones. >The french horn is not exactly the paradigm of beauty. I disagree. The instrument has an aesthetic. > Or a player blowing into an oboe The instrument looks fine though. >The posture with the violin is one of the most awkward one could imagine, also. The posture with the cello is arguably a very sexy one, but if you ask a cellist and violinist to walk while playing the instrument, guess which one's going to be the awkward one. The violin gained initial popularity among street musicians. This is why it has the ergonomics it does. The violin posture allows the performer to walk and jump and dance while playing the instrument. Have you seen performers like Lindsey Stirling? That would be the last showperson I'd call "awkwardly postured".
rroot 4y ago
That viola is a beautiful instrument in its own way. Although it did reminded me of the elephant man.
jefftk 4y ago
For an even weirder appearance, it seems to be like positioning some of the resonating body of the viola behind the neck would let you increase the effective length and also massively improve balance. You're limited in that the bow can't go farther back than your chin, but it still seems promising.

skybrian 4y ago

Are violins and violas much different from an ergonomics perspective?

jffry 4y ago
Violas are larger than violins, which means they're also longer and heavier. Violins/violas are held up entirely by wedging them between your jaw and shoulder, so a short fat viola moves the weight closer and I imagine reduces the torque needed to hold it up. The shorter neck on the instrument also means you don't have to hold your tuning hand out so far (a similar torque issue) and it also means moving your hand out of first position to play higher notes is a shorter motion. edit: The viola is of course also thicker, which means maneuvering your tuning hand around it involves twisting your shoulder more. I imagine the unusual shape also improves that situation.
- klipt 4y ago
  Maybe instead of playing violas like they're big violins, we should play them like they're small cellos? Might be ergonomically better?
  - stirfish 4y ago
    Violins, cellos etc come from the viola da braccio family (arm viola). I used to play the viola da gamba (leg viola), which comes in all sizes but you play them kinda like little cellos. They have six strings, frets, and you hold the bow a little differently, but even the small ones are played with it tucked between your knees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_da_braccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_da_braccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      The Viola da Gamba has a beautiful sound, but almost nobody plays them here in the US. The modern viola is too small to resonate well in its note range, but it's a compromise we make to keep it looking like a violin.
      - tomcam 4y ago
        I just think of it as a throaty, smokey violin sound and feel like it lacks nothing, so it’s illuminating to think about from your perspective.
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        My sister is a professional violist, so I can't be too complimentary to the instrument. It has a very nice sound even though it doesn't resonate as well as the other string instruments.
    - bkev 4y ago
      A violist I knew had a viola from the 1500’s that was originally a viola da gamba that had been cut down a couple hundred years ago (somewhat; was still pretty large for a viola). Had purfling hearts on the bouts. Beautiful instrument.
  - JasonFruit 4y ago
    Carleen Maley Hutchins made a new 8-member family of violin-type instruments[0] which included a somewhat larger instrument tuned like a viola but played on an endpin like a 'cello. It sounds pretty good[1] and improves the ergonomics of fingering and shifting (though not so much bowing), but it has not seen much adoption because a) it has the "looks funny" factor, and b) it requires the violist who trained on a standard instrument to learn a new technical approach to both bowing and fingering. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_octet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_octet [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVh-kNmRcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVh-kNmRcA
    - klipt 4y ago
      > b) it requires the violist who trained on a standard instrument to learn a new technical approach to both bowing and fingering. Or just have cellists play them, instead of violinists. It seems Yo Yo Ma has played one without much difficulty!

tomcam 4y ago

Looks like it has tumors, but would love to try the 5 string. At $12k I feel obligated to level up my viola playing before springing that purchase on my lovely wife…

bayindirh 4y ago
When I read comments like these, I remember a quote from late friend of mine who was an industrial designer: > Ergonomics is ugly. He casually pinned these three words like he pinned something to a cork board.
- jacobolus 4y ago
  Better might be to say: “unfamiliarity is ugly”. Making anything involves fitting constraints and prioritizing by some criteria. Ergonomics just means using human anatomy (capability, comfort, safety) as a deliberate constraint/criterion in tool design, instead of treating it as an afterthought (even when ignored, anatomy still has some kind of “veto” insofar as a tool can’t ever be entirely impossible to use). Starting from first principles with human capabilities and comfort as an explicit goal results in more effective designs which extend tool users’ capabilities further. I think it is incredibly beautiful to have tools shaped to match human bodies. After looking at a couple videos of these lovely ergonomic violas, every time I see a regular viola in the future I’m going to be seeing debilitating repetitive strain injuries.

romwell 4y ago

>There's a maker[0] who builds wildly asymmetric violas that have pretty good sound and are ergonomically excellent I mean... That instrument can sound like it's made by Gods in Heavens, but it looks like one of those Dali semi-molten clocks that got turned into a violin and would subtly message "kILL mEeeEe" through any music played through it. Aesthetics of musical instruments matter a lot, both to the performers and the audience.

JasonFruit 4y ago
Think about how differently you might feel about such an instrument if, like Don Ehrlich of the San Francisco Symphony, you were faced with either finding an instrument that you could play with your carpal tunnel or losing your position. That melty-looking viola might get awful pretty in a hurry.
- romwell 4y ago
  Absolutely. But most people don't tend to think of things like that until they bite. Case in point, most people don't get an ergonomic mouse/keyboard until their hands start hurting.
pfortuny 4y ago
It is just because we are used to their shapes. The french horn is not exactly the paradigm of beauty. Or a player blowing into an oboe (it is difficult to imagine that gesture producing such a beautiful noise; does he need to make that face, really? Indeed, he does). The posture with the violin is one of the most awkward one could imagine, also. When those violas are played (as seen in the videos), the shape is least visible.
- romwell 4y ago
  >It is just because we are used to their shapes. No, it's because it is very asymmetric, and we prefer symmetric shapes to asymmetric ones. >The french horn is not exactly the paradigm of beauty. I disagree. The instrument has an aesthetic. > Or a player blowing into an oboe The instrument looks fine though. >The posture with the violin is one of the most awkward one could imagine, also. The posture with the cello is arguably a very sexy one, but if you ask a cellist and violinist to walk while playing the instrument, guess which one's going to be the awkward one. The violin gained initial popularity among street musicians. This is why it has the ergonomics it does. The violin posture allows the performer to walk and jump and dance while playing the instrument. Have you seen performers like Lindsey Stirling? That would be the last showperson I'd call "awkwardly postured".

rroot 4y ago

That viola is a beautiful instrument in its own way. Although it did reminded me of the elephant man.

jefftk 4y ago

For an even weirder appearance, it seems to be like positioning some of the resonating body of the viola behind the neck would let you increase the effective length and also massively improve balance. You're limited in that the bow can't go farther back than your chin, but it still seems promising.