10 ms·

Why our Smart Video Doorbell will not be able to support HomeKit Secure Video

59 points by jacobp100 4y ago

ok_dad 4y ago
Yet another reason why closed ecosystems aren't great. If I had control over my phone and software, I could set my Apple devices to connect to this device anyways via whatever integration, and just not record 30FPS video from my front door, since I don't fucking care about that. I don't use this product, but it sounds like the team at this company does a good job of keeping costs down to the minimum while squeezing everything they can from their product, and now Apple is preventing an integration that would be useful to both Apple and Netatmo users because of stupid-ass reasons (really? you need 30fps from your doorbell even when no one is there yet?).
- comboy 4y ago
  > really? you need 30fps from your doorbell even when no one is there yet? I think the reasoning may be that with Apple you pay extra to know that something will work well out the box without any issues (yeah yeah, I mean the theory). People don't know what FPS is or anything about internals. They connect the device and the video is not smooth. Looks like something is wrong. It is a good approach not to explain to your users that what they see is actually right, but instead find a solution which doesn't make them feel that way. You don't need to integrate with Apple, there are plenty of solutions. If you do, then there's a reason you use Apple. I think it's mostly that they make choices for users so users don't have to (and it's actually valuable when done right). Every instance is specific and has its constraints, but there are plenty of high resolution and fps IP cameras sitting in the sun and doing just fine. Most seem to have at least 2-3x power usage. 2W seems really great. Gopros work somehow. So maybe they thermal design could use some improvements. Using doorbell as a quick check what's happening out there is also a fair use case which shouldn't require somebody standing next to the camera.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Yea, a good point that perhaps this device isn't what Apple is targeting or intended to take part in this API, but as a user I don't care: I should be able to do what the heck I want with my hardware/software. I know that isn't the case at all, and it makes me sad. I could go to Android and have a bit more freedom, but then Google will be a monkey on my back looking at all my content.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You can, Apple isn’t stopping them from releasing an app in iOS.
- odysseus 4y ago
  From looking at the HomeKit accessory protocol documentation under stream management, 30fps is only the minimum "recommended" frame rate for streaming. The minimum supported is actually 24fps. I don't know if this lower supported minimum would make much difference in heat though. Maybe Netatmo should be using a chipset that has a lower thermal draw. Here's what a teardown of their doorbell looks like https://fccid.io/N3A-NDB01/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photo-pdf-4468812 https://fccid.io/N3A-NDB01/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photo-pd...
- scarface74 4y ago
  If only there was a way that they could release an app for the iPhone and other Apple devices without HomeKit integration. And one of the benefits of HomeKit integration is that Apple gives you a certain amount of video storage. The “closed ecosystem” has nothing to do with your ability to use the app. You just can’t integrate with HomeKit. If you are concerned with automation, if their app supports it, you can still use the automation.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    They can release an app, no problem.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      I know. It’s others who are overblowing the situation. They can also provide hooks to work with iOS automation framework.
heywire 4y ago
My Amcrest AD410 doorbell encodes 2K (2560x1920) video at 15fps 24/7, and my previous Nest camera did 1600x1200 at 30fps 24/7. I guess it is more a limitation of their specific product than of the category in general.
- ComputerGuru 4y ago
  As resolution goes up, frame rate goes down. Most IP cams let you choose where on the resolution vs fps divide you want to be.
- exhilaration 4y ago
  I'm curious about your setup. I've got a Nest doorbell camera and would love to stop sending my video to Google. Do you get notified when there's someone outside your door? Or a notification that someone rang your bell? What app do you use on your phone? What about intercom functionality, is there a way to replicate that?
  - heywire 4y ago
    I have it set up with the Amcrest app, so I still get notifications, I can do two-way audio, etc. The motion / person detection is happening on-device, as it is not sending a stream to Amcrest. I don’t subscribe to their cloud storage plan, but I do have a micro SD card in the device, so it stores clips of detected motion and people that play back in the app as if I did. The feed to my NVR is secondary to all of that. Their app is not as polished as the Nest app, but it is sufficient. From what I understand though, after Nest moved everything under Google, their app isn’t as good anymore either.
- MikusR 4y ago
  2k is 2048 × 1080
  - heywire 4y ago
    You’re right, I was going based on their description. It’s actually higher than 2K. https://amcrest.com/4mp-wifi-camera-doorbell-ad410.html https://amcrest.com/4mp-wifi-camera-doorbell-ad410.html
sirmoveon 4y ago
Can someone make an inexpensive PoE Doorbell? — IP camera FullHD or better, PoE, 2 way audio, with a button. With the popularity of NVRs, there's a niche market for those unsatisfied.
- heywire 4y ago
  I’m sure they could, but how many people have Ethernet at their doorbell? We recently built a new home, so I had the opportunity to hardwire all of our cameras, except the doorbells. There just weren’t great options that I could find. Luckily the Amcrest doorbells I chose have been rock solid. They support rtsp, so my NVR records them just like the rest of the cameras.
  - sirmoveon 4y ago
    That's the point I'm trying to make. The popularity of having NVR systems with multiple cameras, rather than just a Doorbell makes it viable to think people would want this option over a supercharged Doorbell — The idea to process object detection at the doorbell is kind of ludicrous.
  - yurymik 4y ago
    There's Ring Video Doorbell Elite, so the market isn't completely bare. Yes, it's Amazon and pricey, but it does exist.
  - gerdesj 4y ago
    "but how many people have Ethernet at their doorbell?" With PoE and a UPS too. Your front door by definition is on an outer edge of your house. You can run conduit externally or whatever internally. It isn't beyond the wit of man to deploy wiring. If you need your "smart" doorbell to always work then you will get ethernet to it and ideally PoE too to power it. A UPS will keep it alive when the power is out. I also recommend that it is able to trigger a non smart chime too so if all "smart" stuff is unavailable, you still get notified. When my home (Doorbird) doorbell is pressed: Separate battery backed chime goes off, Sonos speakers say "Ding dong, there is somebody at the door", TVs get a notification, our mobile phone apps twitter. It is still possible to miss a doorbell press but quite hard. I do all my IoT stuff like that if possible - important stuff still works without the hub/internet/Home Assistant.
Calvin02 4y ago
Apple & Google capricious integration policies are often user hostile. Seems like it would be much better to let people decide what quality they want from their doorbell rather than mandating it as part of the integration. I don't want to store 1080p 30fps video all the time and have it consume the entire 50gb that I buy with iCloud.
- shmoogy 4y ago
  HKSV doesn't use any storage, but I'm not sure if that's available in the cheapest plan. I use scrypted to push all my UniFi cameras into HomeKit for free recordings and identification of people/packages. Looks like it's unlimited only on the higher plan - For $0.99 per month, iCloud+ will offer 50GB of iCloud storage and support for recording video from one HomeKit Secure Video camera. For $2.99 per month, iCloud+ will offer 200GB of storage and support for up to five HomeKit Secure Video cameras. For $9.99 per month, you get 2TB of iCloud storage and support for unlimited HomeKit Secure Video cameras.
  - Kerbonut 4y ago
    Does scrypted require a HomeKit hub to support saving to HKSV? I have that set up on my amcrest doorbell but haven’t figured out how to get the notifications and HKSV to work.
    - shmoogy 4y ago
      I'm not too sure of any exact requirements, I've got like 7 devices that qualify as HomeKit hubs in my HomeKit house so I can't easily test that for you. Can you see the camera in HomeKit, it's just not doing the recording and notifications?
      - Kerbonut 4y ago
        Yes that is right. There’s also a message saying I need one when trying to enable HKSV, but scrypted documentation doesn’t call out the need for one.
kappuchino 4y ago
Gone for me. Archive.org link: https://web.archive.org/web/20221018214742/https://get.netatmo.com/hksv-en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221018214742/https://get.netat...
- ehPReth 4y ago
  Thank you to whoever saw this and thought to archive it!
tzs 4y ago
I wonder if it would work to capture at 2 FPS but duplicate each frame 15 times to get the 30 FPS that HomeKit wants? I'd expect that would use a lot less power and generate a lot less heat than capturing 30 FPS. What I guess it would come down to is whether or not HomeKit's local processing to determine if a person, animal, or car is in the scene actually needs to see movement over short enough timescales that you actually need 30 FPS.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rasz 4y ago
TLDR we made a bad product. Hundreds of car dashcams have no problem loop recording 24/7 while glued to the frond window sitting directly in hot sun. On the other hand I dont feel one bit comfortable streaming any video of my home to "someone elses computer" without end to end encryption.
vr46 4y ago
I really rate Netatmo's products and attitude after having lived with their outdoor cameras for several years, and was waiting and waiting for this product. This is a real shame, especially for something that has taken years to create.

59 points by jacobp100 4y ago

Yet another reason why closed ecosystems aren't great. If I had control over my phone and software, I could set my Apple devices to connect to this device anyways via whatever integration, and just not record 30FPS video from my front door, since I don't fucking care about that. I don't use this product, but it sounds like the team at this company does a good job of keeping costs down to the minimum while squeezing everything they can from their product, and now Apple is preventing an integration that would be useful to both Apple and Netatmo users because of stupid-ass reasons (really? you need 30fps from your doorbell even when no one is there yet?).

comboy 4y ago
> really? you need 30fps from your doorbell even when no one is there yet? I think the reasoning may be that with Apple you pay extra to know that something will work well out the box without any issues (yeah yeah, I mean the theory). People don't know what FPS is or anything about internals. They connect the device and the video is not smooth. Looks like something is wrong. It is a good approach not to explain to your users that what they see is actually right, but instead find a solution which doesn't make them feel that way. You don't need to integrate with Apple, there are plenty of solutions. If you do, then there's a reason you use Apple. I think it's mostly that they make choices for users so users don't have to (and it's actually valuable when done right). Every instance is specific and has its constraints, but there are plenty of high resolution and fps IP cameras sitting in the sun and doing just fine. Most seem to have at least 2-3x power usage. 2W seems really great. Gopros work somehow. So maybe they thermal design could use some improvements. Using doorbell as a quick check what's happening out there is also a fair use case which shouldn't require somebody standing next to the camera.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Yea, a good point that perhaps this device isn't what Apple is targeting or intended to take part in this API, but as a user I don't care: I should be able to do what the heck I want with my hardware/software. I know that isn't the case at all, and it makes me sad. I could go to Android and have a bit more freedom, but then Google will be a monkey on my back looking at all my content.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You can, Apple isn’t stopping them from releasing an app in iOS.
odysseus 4y ago
From looking at the HomeKit accessory protocol documentation under stream management, 30fps is only the minimum "recommended" frame rate for streaming. The minimum supported is actually 24fps. I don't know if this lower supported minimum would make much difference in heat though. Maybe Netatmo should be using a chipset that has a lower thermal draw. Here's what a teardown of their doorbell looks like https://fccid.io/N3A-NDB01/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photo-pdf-4468812 https://fccid.io/N3A-NDB01/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photo-pd...
scarface74 4y ago
If only there was a way that they could release an app for the iPhone and other Apple devices without HomeKit integration. And one of the benefits of HomeKit integration is that Apple gives you a certain amount of video storage. The “closed ecosystem” has nothing to do with your ability to use the app. You just can’t integrate with HomeKit. If you are concerned with automation, if their app supports it, you can still use the automation.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  They can release an app, no problem.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I know. It’s others who are overblowing the situation. They can also provide hooks to work with iOS automation framework.

heywire 4y ago

My Amcrest AD410 doorbell encodes 2K (2560x1920) video at 15fps 24/7, and my previous Nest camera did 1600x1200 at 30fps 24/7. I guess it is more a limitation of their specific product than of the category in general.

ComputerGuru 4y ago
As resolution goes up, frame rate goes down. Most IP cams let you choose where on the resolution vs fps divide you want to be.
exhilaration 4y ago
I'm curious about your setup. I've got a Nest doorbell camera and would love to stop sending my video to Google. Do you get notified when there's someone outside your door? Or a notification that someone rang your bell? What app do you use on your phone? What about intercom functionality, is there a way to replicate that?
- heywire 4y ago
  I have it set up with the Amcrest app, so I still get notifications, I can do two-way audio, etc. The motion / person detection is happening on-device, as it is not sending a stream to Amcrest. I don’t subscribe to their cloud storage plan, but I do have a micro SD card in the device, so it stores clips of detected motion and people that play back in the app as if I did. The feed to my NVR is secondary to all of that. Their app is not as polished as the Nest app, but it is sufficient. From what I understand though, after Nest moved everything under Google, their app isn’t as good anymore either.
MikusR 4y ago
2k is 2048 × 1080
- heywire 4y ago
  You’re right, I was going based on their description. It’s actually higher than 2K. https://amcrest.com/4mp-wifi-camera-doorbell-ad410.html https://amcrest.com/4mp-wifi-camera-doorbell-ad410.html

sirmoveon 4y ago

Can someone make an inexpensive PoE Doorbell? — IP camera FullHD or better, PoE, 2 way audio, with a button. With the popularity of NVRs, there's a niche market for those unsatisfied.

heywire 4y ago
I’m sure they could, but how many people have Ethernet at their doorbell? We recently built a new home, so I had the opportunity to hardwire all of our cameras, except the doorbells. There just weren’t great options that I could find. Luckily the Amcrest doorbells I chose have been rock solid. They support rtsp, so my NVR records them just like the rest of the cameras.
- sirmoveon 4y ago
  That's the point I'm trying to make. The popularity of having NVR systems with multiple cameras, rather than just a Doorbell makes it viable to think people would want this option over a supercharged Doorbell — The idea to process object detection at the doorbell is kind of ludicrous.
- yurymik 4y ago
  There's Ring Video Doorbell Elite, so the market isn't completely bare. Yes, it's Amazon and pricey, but it does exist.
- gerdesj 4y ago
  "but how many people have Ethernet at their doorbell?" With PoE and a UPS too. Your front door by definition is on an outer edge of your house. You can run conduit externally or whatever internally. It isn't beyond the wit of man to deploy wiring. If you need your "smart" doorbell to always work then you will get ethernet to it and ideally PoE too to power it. A UPS will keep it alive when the power is out. I also recommend that it is able to trigger a non smart chime too so if all "smart" stuff is unavailable, you still get notified. When my home (Doorbird) doorbell is pressed: Separate battery backed chime goes off, Sonos speakers say "Ding dong, there is somebody at the door", TVs get a notification, our mobile phone apps twitter. It is still possible to miss a doorbell press but quite hard. I do all my IoT stuff like that if possible - important stuff still works without the hub/internet/Home Assistant.

Calvin02 4y ago

Apple & Google capricious integration policies are often user hostile. Seems like it would be much better to let people decide what quality they want from their doorbell rather than mandating it as part of the integration. I don't want to store 1080p 30fps video all the time and have it consume the entire 50gb that I buy with iCloud.

shmoogy 4y ago
HKSV doesn't use any storage, but I'm not sure if that's available in the cheapest plan. I use scrypted to push all my UniFi cameras into HomeKit for free recordings and identification of people/packages. Looks like it's unlimited only on the higher plan - For $0.99 per month, iCloud+ will offer 50GB of iCloud storage and support for recording video from one HomeKit Secure Video camera. For $2.99 per month, iCloud+ will offer 200GB of storage and support for up to five HomeKit Secure Video cameras. For $9.99 per month, you get 2TB of iCloud storage and support for unlimited HomeKit Secure Video cameras.
- Kerbonut 4y ago
  Does scrypted require a HomeKit hub to support saving to HKSV? I have that set up on my amcrest doorbell but haven’t figured out how to get the notifications and HKSV to work.
  - shmoogy 4y ago
    I'm not too sure of any exact requirements, I've got like 7 devices that qualify as HomeKit hubs in my HomeKit house so I can't easily test that for you. Can you see the camera in HomeKit, it's just not doing the recording and notifications?
    - Kerbonut 4y ago
      Yes that is right. There’s also a message saying I need one when trying to enable HKSV, but scrypted documentation doesn’t call out the need for one.

kappuchino 4y ago

Gone for me. Archive.org link: https://web.archive.org/web/20221018214742/https://get.netatmo.com/hksv-en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221018214742/https://get.netat...

ehPReth 4y ago
Thank you to whoever saw this and thought to archive it!

tzs 4y ago

I wonder if it would work to capture at 2 FPS but duplicate each frame 15 times to get the 30 FPS that HomeKit wants? I'd expect that would use a lot less power and generate a lot less heat than capturing 30 FPS. What I guess it would come down to is whether or not HomeKit's local processing to determine if a person, animal, or car is in the scene actually needs to see movement over short enough timescales that you actually need 30 FPS.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rasz 4y ago

TLDR we made a bad product. Hundreds of car dashcams have no problem loop recording 24/7 while glued to the frond window sitting directly in hot sun. On the other hand I dont feel one bit comfortable streaming any video of my home to "someone elses computer" without end to end encryption.

vr46 4y ago

I really rate Netatmo's products and attitude after having lived with their outdoor cameras for several years, and was waiting and waiting for this product. This is a real shame, especially for something that has taken years to create.