6 ms·

Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. What are those superblocks where that happened exactly? And where is the 9 month construction

Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. What are those superblocks where that happened exactly? And where is the 9 month construction job?

judge2020 4y ago
I can definitely see rents increase. A walkable city is one where you don’t need a car (you only need to rent one if you go on a road trip or you can fly/bus to wherever you like) NOR car insurance. Given that, if you’re an apartment management company, and your prospective tenants have an extra $100-500 a month in change, would you or would you not raise rents, given the demand for an apartment in a walkable city is huge?
- jeffalyanak 4y ago
  I guess the surprise comes from the fact that there's a lot of supply as well.
- lmm 4y ago
  It's the idea of both at once that's implausible. Making it more walkable would gentrify it and raise rents? Sure, I can see that. But the idea that this would also somehow increase crime? Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are.
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    I wonder if using tools like https://communitycrimemap.com https://communitycrimemap.com would help with city design. Just off the glances I've made: Most crimes happen in easily accessible areas with clear getaway routes, almost no crimes happen at the center cul de sac of a neighbourhood.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    Sounds like an explanation there - pedestrians see and are involved with more crime, reported crime rates go up?
  - weberer 4y ago
    Crime does tend to increase with population density.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Muggers and burglars travel to gentrified neighborhoods to work, because it's a completely rational thing to do. > Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are. Pedestrians are easier to watch and carefully evaluate, also, and will not always be around; you can follow a target and wait until they are safe to rob. People in cars are a mystery, and near active streets a constant one.
- Atsuii 4y ago
  Given the state of rent prices globally in western countries I really have to question if the increases you're seeing are attributed to 'superblocks' or just general inflation. If the rent is increasing due to 'superblocks' it's going to be because people prefer living within them rather than traditional blocks, hence they can command more rent, not because there is suddenly spare change that was once spent on a car. Also I don't think pollution is specific to this type of construction. Any type of full scale construction in urban environments causes terrible pollution and pest issues for the adjacent blocks.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    I never said anything about current rents, just that superblocks and general walkability are in extremely high demand, so rents will reflect that.
  - robswc 4y ago
    Why can't it be both? By moving there, you're effectively signaling you don't have a car. Those without cars (all else being equal, not sure why it wouldn't be) will have extra money. If the place is desirable, what is to stop those with that new "extra money" from using that to outbid those with less money? I don't at all doubt its also inflation at play. It seems perfectly reasonable tho that a place that generally has car-less renters would have higher prices as those without cars could afford that added price. To an extent of course.
    - idlehand 4y ago
      So the problem is really that regulations have constrained the supply of housing to the point that rents are set as high as people can afford, rather than at the price of replacement.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Rents in places where demand exceeds supply are like that (and probably always will be).
      - 4y ago
- m463 4y ago
  re rent increase - I wonder if the future is becoming a giant hyper-efficient machine meant to extract maximum value from "consumers"? basically efficient rent-seeking in the literal sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking I wonder what can be the counter to this?
  - judge2020 4y ago
    Zoning fixes and dense, walkable city planning is the solution. It's just that there would need to be some law from the top level of government, eg. on a national or state level, to force cities have a certain minimum amount of high-density development every year. Because, right now, these cities adhere to their constituents who all would prefer if the supply remained stagnant so that their property values can continue to increase well past whatever they're paying for their monthly mortgage payment.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I’m staunchly opposed to a national or state government forcing a certain type of development onto cities. Forcing the approval of some type of permits and permitting high density development in some amount/type of area is much more reasonable and executable. (If a city were falling short of the originally proposed mandated housing, what entity would have to make up the shortfall and how would you force them to build a development they’re not asking to build?)
      - eesmith 4y ago
        One of the zoning fixes along the lines judge2020 mentioned is to remove the parking minimum requirements, which already forces a certain type of development onto cities. Another is to remove zoning laws preventing secondary suites / in-law apartments / granny flats / etc. These also force a certain type of development onto cities. Another fix - not so much zoning though - is to move to 10' lanes instead of 12'. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-06/why-12-foot-traffic-lanes-are-disastrous-for-safety-and-must-be-replaced-now https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-06/why-12-fo... , which again forces a certain type of development onto cities. After decades of existing forced development, it too easily becomes the baseline of what is "normal."
dirtyid 4y ago
Wonder how much of rent increase is attributed to airbnb.
ajmurmann 4y ago
I wonder if the crime increases in absolute numbers, but goes down per capita. This phenomenon frequently gives cities a bad rep, even though you might actually be safer.
- jeegsy 4y ago
  > I wonder if the crime increases in absolute numbers, but goes down per capita. You might probably be right but its nevertheless amusing the way statistics can render things banal in a weird way
- weberer 4y ago
  Nope, it goes up per-capita as well.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    Ugh, I read a few days ago that per capita crime is lower in cities. Tried to find numbers about it and you are correct. Kinda concerning that you got a bunch of downvotes for being correct and I got upvotes despite being wrong.
agilob 4y ago
> Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. Same in the UK, rent is up all over the country, breaking in, flytipping, private and public areas devastation is up. Local media don't even care to report on knife attacks in major cities.
rmason 4y ago
I wonder if they've tried putting up cameras everywhere? It made a huge difference in downtown Detroit. First the billionaire Dan Gilbert bought up most of the empty buildings downtown and put cameras everywhere. Course he hired his own quick response security force to arrest and hold criminals until the DPD could arrive. I've personally walked the streets near Campus Martius at 2 am and felt personally safe. It worked so well that the city and the DPD started the Green Light program. They worked with gas stations putting up cameras and put together teams of dedicated officers for a quick response. The result was that it drastically reduced car jackings and gas station robberies. Now they've done the same thing at liquor stores and are talking about expanding it to other cooperating merchants. Cameras only work if they are being monitored and the police respond quickly.
- ls15 4y ago
  Not everything that technically works should be done.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    True, but I can’t muster any concern for the uninterrupted practice of car jackers, gas station, or liquor store robbers.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I wonder how long that would work, and when they would start reducing resources to it to save money. Critical part isn't the monitoring, but availability of enforcement. Having enough units just walking around would probably have similar effect.
mantas 4y ago
Crime follows money. Wether going to better-off city parts or even travelling internationally. Not only targets are more wealthy, but „you don't shit where you eat“ is important too. You don't want to accidentally rob a friend's friend's friend... For example here in bum fuck eastern europe, after we joined Schengen, street crime dropped in no time. Lots of „street professionals“ went to much more wealthy Western europe. Some packed up and left. Others leave for tours and come back home to live on income from stolen stuff.

Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. What are those superblocks where that happened exactly? And where is the 9 month construction job?

judge2020 4y ago

I can definitely see rents increase. A walkable city is one where you don’t need a car (you only need to rent one if you go on a road trip or you can fly/bus to wherever you like) NOR car insurance. Given that, if you’re an apartment management company, and your prospective tenants have an extra $100-500 a month in change, would you or would you not raise rents, given the demand for an apartment in a walkable city is huge?

jeffalyanak 4y ago
I guess the surprise comes from the fact that there's a lot of supply as well.
lmm 4y ago
It's the idea of both at once that's implausible. Making it more walkable would gentrify it and raise rents? Sure, I can see that. But the idea that this would also somehow increase crime? Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are.
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  I wonder if using tools like https://communitycrimemap.com https://communitycrimemap.com would help with city design. Just off the glances I've made: Most crimes happen in easily accessible areas with clear getaway routes, almost no crimes happen at the center cul de sac of a neighbourhood.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  Sounds like an explanation there - pedestrians see and are involved with more crime, reported crime rates go up?
- weberer 4y ago
  Crime does tend to increase with population density.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Muggers and burglars travel to gentrified neighborhoods to work, because it's a completely rational thing to do. > Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are. Pedestrians are easier to watch and carefully evaluate, also, and will not always be around; you can follow a target and wait until they are safe to rob. People in cars are a mystery, and near active streets a constant one.
Atsuii 4y ago
Given the state of rent prices globally in western countries I really have to question if the increases you're seeing are attributed to 'superblocks' or just general inflation. If the rent is increasing due to 'superblocks' it's going to be because people prefer living within them rather than traditional blocks, hence they can command more rent, not because there is suddenly spare change that was once spent on a car. Also I don't think pollution is specific to this type of construction. Any type of full scale construction in urban environments causes terrible pollution and pest issues for the adjacent blocks.
- judge2020 4y ago
  I never said anything about current rents, just that superblocks and general walkability are in extremely high demand, so rents will reflect that.
- robswc 4y ago
  Why can't it be both? By moving there, you're effectively signaling you don't have a car. Those without cars (all else being equal, not sure why it wouldn't be) will have extra money. If the place is desirable, what is to stop those with that new "extra money" from using that to outbid those with less money? I don't at all doubt its also inflation at play. It seems perfectly reasonable tho that a place that generally has car-less renters would have higher prices as those without cars could afford that added price. To an extent of course.
  - idlehand 4y ago
    So the problem is really that regulations have constrained the supply of housing to the point that rents are set as high as people can afford, rather than at the price of replacement.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Rents in places where demand exceeds supply are like that (and probably always will be).
    - 4y ago
m463 4y ago
re rent increase - I wonder if the future is becoming a giant hyper-efficient machine meant to extract maximum value from "consumers"? basically efficient rent-seeking in the literal sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking I wonder what can be the counter to this?
- judge2020 4y ago
  Zoning fixes and dense, walkable city planning is the solution. It's just that there would need to be some law from the top level of government, eg. on a national or state level, to force cities have a certain minimum amount of high-density development every year. Because, right now, these cities adhere to their constituents who all would prefer if the supply remained stagnant so that their property values can continue to increase well past whatever they're paying for their monthly mortgage payment.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I’m staunchly opposed to a national or state government forcing a certain type of development onto cities. Forcing the approval of some type of permits and permitting high density development in some amount/type of area is much more reasonable and executable. (If a city were falling short of the originally proposed mandated housing, what entity would have to make up the shortfall and how would you force them to build a development they’re not asking to build?)
    - eesmith 4y ago
      One of the zoning fixes along the lines judge2020 mentioned is to remove the parking minimum requirements, which already forces a certain type of development onto cities. Another is to remove zoning laws preventing secondary suites / in-law apartments / granny flats / etc. These also force a certain type of development onto cities. Another fix - not so much zoning though - is to move to 10' lanes instead of 12'. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-06/why-12-foot-traffic-lanes-are-disastrous-for-safety-and-must-be-replaced-now https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-06/why-12-fo... , which again forces a certain type of development onto cities. After decades of existing forced development, it too easily becomes the baseline of what is "normal."

dirtyid 4y ago

Wonder how much of rent increase is attributed to airbnb.

ajmurmann 4y ago

I wonder if the crime increases in absolute numbers, but goes down per capita. This phenomenon frequently gives cities a bad rep, even though you might actually be safer.

jeegsy 4y ago
> I wonder if the crime increases in absolute numbers, but goes down per capita. You might probably be right but its nevertheless amusing the way statistics can render things banal in a weird way
weberer 4y ago
Nope, it goes up per-capita as well.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Ugh, I read a few days ago that per capita crime is lower in cities. Tried to find numbers about it and you are correct. Kinda concerning that you got a bunch of downvotes for being correct and I got upvotes despite being wrong.

agilob 4y ago

> Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. Same in the UK, rent is up all over the country, breaking in, flytipping, private and public areas devastation is up. Local media don't even care to report on knife attacks in major cities.

rmason 4y ago

I wonder if they've tried putting up cameras everywhere? It made a huge difference in downtown Detroit. First the billionaire Dan Gilbert bought up most of the empty buildings downtown and put cameras everywhere. Course he hired his own quick response security force to arrest and hold criminals until the DPD could arrive. I've personally walked the streets near Campus Martius at 2 am and felt personally safe. It worked so well that the city and the DPD started the Green Light program. They worked with gas stations putting up cameras and put together teams of dedicated officers for a quick response. The result was that it drastically reduced car jackings and gas station robberies. Now they've done the same thing at liquor stores and are talking about expanding it to other cooperating merchants. Cameras only work if they are being monitored and the police respond quickly.

ls15 4y ago
Not everything that technically works should be done.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  True, but I can’t muster any concern for the uninterrupted practice of car jackers, gas station, or liquor store robbers.
Ekaros 4y ago
I wonder how long that would work, and when they would start reducing resources to it to save money. Critical part isn't the monitoring, but availability of enforcement. Having enough units just walking around would probably have similar effect.

mantas 4y ago

Crime follows money. Wether going to better-off city parts or even travelling internationally. Not only targets are more wealthy, but „you don't shit where you eat“ is important too. You don't want to accidentally rob a friend's friend's friend... For example here in bum fuck eastern europe, after we joined Schengen, street crime dropped in no time. Lots of „street professionals“ went to much more wealthy Western europe. Some packed up and left. Others leave for tours and come back home to live on income from stolen stuff.