4 ms·

To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. So ma

To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. So many smart people here who are passionate about labor. Just make that into your company from day 1! As a business owner I would never do this. But you could do that yourselves without coercing me into them!

ElevenLathe 4y ago
That's true! It's also true that nothing stops your employees from walking out until they are treated better! There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. Honestly you get more protections if they are part of a recognized union than if their only choice is a wildcat action.
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  > There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. In fact, in the US (and many other countries), it's illegal to do so.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Why should me, as the owner, be unable to fire people trying to unionize? If someone doesn't like a job they can leave. The union is anti-freedom - it restricts what I am able to do with my property (my business).
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    You shouldn't be able to because it's a condition of our allowing your company to exist at all, and it's a law. Incorporation is not a right, it comes with strings attached, though fewer and fewer over time. Even more fundamentally though, why should your employees care about your property? If you're worse off but they're better off, they should do it. Your wellbeing doesn't enter into the decision, just as their wellbeing doesn't enter into yours.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Business and commerce are emergent phenomena and they would exist without the state “allowing” me to organize freely with other people for financial gain. Property rights are the foundation of civilization. Please - go start your own commune as so many fantasists have and see how well it goes. I prefer to own my own stuff and keep thieves from taking it.
hellotomyrars 4y ago
As a member of a union, I will work towards promoting unionization and the benefits of a union. I’m not calling you unscrupulous, and I think not every company needs a union to represent labor. But companies at scale absolutely do. If you’re treated as a disposable cog in the machine that can be replaced at will then your labor is not valued. They will pump you and everyone else dry with the rawest deal they can get. The only way for labor to get a square deal is through a union. The fact is obvious because large corporations do everything possible to try and prevent their labor from unionizing. You may be a good person running a business that respects your employees and if you are, I have no issue with you. But if you’re someone stocking the shelves at Home Depot or working in an Amazon warehouse you aren’t respected by your employer and you aren’t getting a square deal.
BaseballPhysics 4y ago
> To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. That freedom is a two-way street, and it's equally true that nothing stops labour from coming together to bargain collectively. In fact, in the US and many other countries, that freedom is explicitly enshrined in law.
- seibelj 4y ago
  That isn't "freedom" - that's coercion. If you want to bargain collectively, go ahead. But in a free country I would be able to fire all of you and replace you immediately.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    Good thing most of the developed world isn't free then. Sounds like a shithole place to live.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Strange I’ve never worked for unionized workplaces, from retail and fast food to high tech, and they were wonderful places to work with happy coworkers. It’s almost like your vision of a miserable capitalist hell hole is a fantasy, while socialist places like Europe are declining in living standards.
      - ElevenLathe 4y ago
        Who said anything about nonunion workplaces being hellholes. I was saying I would hate to live somewhere with no restrictions on employer retaliation to free labor organizing. This is a policy that all advanced democracies have had for over a hundred years, hardly radical.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> As a business owner I would never do this. But you could do that yourselves without coercing me into them! Nothing stops you from operating a business at full personal liability. As a worker, I would never do this, but you can do it yourselves without coercing me into supporting the existence of liability-shielding legal entities with more power than ordinary humans. See how you can kinda do that with anything, so it's not very convincing?

ElevenLathe 4y ago

That's true! It's also true that nothing stops your employees from walking out until they are treated better! There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. Honestly you get more protections if they are part of a recognized union than if their only choice is a wildcat action.

BaseballPhysics 4y ago
> There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. In fact, in the US (and many other countries), it's illegal to do so.
seibelj 4y ago
Why should me, as the owner, be unable to fire people trying to unionize? If someone doesn't like a job they can leave. The union is anti-freedom - it restricts what I am able to do with my property (my business).
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  You shouldn't be able to because it's a condition of our allowing your company to exist at all, and it's a law. Incorporation is not a right, it comes with strings attached, though fewer and fewer over time. Even more fundamentally though, why should your employees care about your property? If you're worse off but they're better off, they should do it. Your wellbeing doesn't enter into the decision, just as their wellbeing doesn't enter into yours.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Business and commerce are emergent phenomena and they would exist without the state “allowing” me to organize freely with other people for financial gain. Property rights are the foundation of civilization. Please - go start your own commune as so many fantasists have and see how well it goes. I prefer to own my own stuff and keep thieves from taking it.

hellotomyrars 4y ago

As a member of a union, I will work towards promoting unionization and the benefits of a union. I’m not calling you unscrupulous, and I think not every company needs a union to represent labor. But companies at scale absolutely do. If you’re treated as a disposable cog in the machine that can be replaced at will then your labor is not valued. They will pump you and everyone else dry with the rawest deal they can get. The only way for labor to get a square deal is through a union. The fact is obvious because large corporations do everything possible to try and prevent their labor from unionizing. You may be a good person running a business that respects your employees and if you are, I have no issue with you. But if you’re someone stocking the shelves at Home Depot or working in an Amazon warehouse you aren’t respected by your employer and you aren’t getting a square deal.

BaseballPhysics 4y ago

> To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. That freedom is a two-way street, and it's equally true that nothing stops labour from coming together to bargain collectively. In fact, in the US and many other countries, that freedom is explicitly enshrined in law.

seibelj 4y ago
That isn't "freedom" - that's coercion. If you want to bargain collectively, go ahead. But in a free country I would be able to fire all of you and replace you immediately.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Good thing most of the developed world isn't free then. Sounds like a shithole place to live.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Strange I’ve never worked for unionized workplaces, from retail and fast food to high tech, and they were wonderful places to work with happy coworkers. It’s almost like your vision of a miserable capitalist hell hole is a fantasy, while socialist places like Europe are declining in living standards.
    - ElevenLathe 4y ago
      Who said anything about nonunion workplaces being hellholes. I was saying I would hate to live somewhere with no restrictions on employer retaliation to free labor organizing. This is a policy that all advanced democracies have had for over a hundred years, hardly radical.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> As a business owner I would never do this. But you could do that yourselves without coercing me into them! Nothing stops you from operating a business at full personal liability. As a worker, I would never do this, but you can do it yourselves without coercing me into supporting the existence of liability-shielding legal entities with more power than ordinary humans. See how you can kinda do that with anything, so it's not very convincing?