4 ms·

This is a neat hack by management. It would be great if there was a union that they had to bargain with before doing this kind of thing.

whatshisface 4y ago
Getting around severance is, believe it or not, illegal with or without unions.
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Sure, but who is going to bat for you except a union lawyer? Your state AG? Fat chance.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Well, we are talking about software engineers, they are not locked out of the legal system economically.
    - angry_octet 4y ago
      Individually, even people with $500k/year salaries are minnows compared to the resources of the company, especially a VC backed behemoth like Stripe. Only collectively do you have strength.
- shagie 4y ago
  https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/severancepay https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/severancepay > Severance pay is often granted to employees upon termination of employment. It is usually based on length of employment for which an employee is eligible upon termination. There is no requirement in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) for severance pay. Severance pay is a matter of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative). The Employee Benefits Security Administration (EBSA) may be able to assist an employee who did not receive severance benefits under their employer-sponsored plan. Please contact EBSA if you have any questions.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Yes, some positions do not have severance, but if a company is trying to get around severance, then that must not be the case. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just have layoffs?
    - shagie 4y ago
      A layoff is an elimination of a position often because of economic issues. After the layoff is done, that position is gone. Letting someone go because of performance doesn't remove the position and it can be filled again. If the company is realizing that there are people who are just coasting and not doing work and that they're not getting fired previously because it really is a pain and paperwork to fire someone and they want to let those low performers go but not eliminate the position, this is the way to go about it. Microsoft's old stack rank wasn't a layoff - it was a cold hearted "people who aren't preforming get let go." Stripe is recognizing that they've got people coasting and not contributing at the expected level. Somewhere an estimate was made that the lowest performing staff based on manager ratings aren't matching the actual performance. If someone is let go for performance (severance or no - that isn't part of the calculation), that position remains and can be filled again. If it was a layoff, then that position would be eliminated after the person was laid off.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Severance is voluntary unless they signed a contract up front. Legally, the company could flip a coin and give every other person severance. If they wanted to “get around” severance they just decide not to do it regardless.
- scarface74 4y ago
  How is it illegal when legally no company is required to pay severance in the US?
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    Presumably he means severance that is agreed in the employment contract which, as you've noted, is extremely unusual in the US below the executive level.
seibelj 4y ago
To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. So many smart people here who are passionate about labor. Just make that into your company from day 1! As a business owner I would never do this. But you could do that yourselves without coercing me into them!
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  That's true! It's also true that nothing stops your employees from walking out until they are treated better! There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. Honestly you get more protections if they are part of a recognized union than if their only choice is a wildcat action.
  - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
    > There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. In fact, in the US (and many other countries), it's illegal to do so.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Why should me, as the owner, be unable to fire people trying to unionize? If someone doesn't like a job they can leave. The union is anti-freedom - it restricts what I am able to do with my property (my business).
    - ElevenLathe 4y ago
      You shouldn't be able to because it's a condition of our allowing your company to exist at all, and it's a law. Incorporation is not a right, it comes with strings attached, though fewer and fewer over time. Even more fundamentally though, why should your employees care about your property? If you're worse off but they're better off, they should do it. Your wellbeing doesn't enter into the decision, just as their wellbeing doesn't enter into yours.

whatshisface 4y ago

Getting around severance is, believe it or not, illegal with or without unions.

ElevenLathe 4y ago
Sure, but who is going to bat for you except a union lawyer? Your state AG? Fat chance.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Well, we are talking about software engineers, they are not locked out of the legal system economically.
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    Individually, even people with $500k/year salaries are minnows compared to the resources of the company, especially a VC backed behemoth like Stripe. Only collectively do you have strength.
shagie 4y ago
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/severancepay https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/severancepay > Severance pay is often granted to employees upon termination of employment. It is usually based on length of employment for which an employee is eligible upon termination. There is no requirement in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) for severance pay. Severance pay is a matter of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative). The Employee Benefits Security Administration (EBSA) may be able to assist an employee who did not receive severance benefits under their employer-sponsored plan. Please contact EBSA if you have any questions.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Yes, some positions do not have severance, but if a company is trying to get around severance, then that must not be the case. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just have layoffs?
  - shagie 4y ago
    A layoff is an elimination of a position often because of economic issues. After the layoff is done, that position is gone. Letting someone go because of performance doesn't remove the position and it can be filled again. If the company is realizing that there are people who are just coasting and not doing work and that they're not getting fired previously because it really is a pain and paperwork to fire someone and they want to let those low performers go but not eliminate the position, this is the way to go about it. Microsoft's old stack rank wasn't a layoff - it was a cold hearted "people who aren't preforming get let go." Stripe is recognizing that they've got people coasting and not contributing at the expected level. Somewhere an estimate was made that the lowest performing staff based on manager ratings aren't matching the actual performance. If someone is let go for performance (severance or no - that isn't part of the calculation), that position remains and can be filled again. If it was a layoff, then that position would be eliminated after the person was laid off.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Severance is voluntary unless they signed a contract up front. Legally, the company could flip a coin and give every other person severance. If they wanted to “get around” severance they just decide not to do it regardless.
scarface74 4y ago
How is it illegal when legally no company is required to pay severance in the US?
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Presumably he means severance that is agreed in the employment contract which, as you've noted, is extremely unusual in the US below the executive level.

seibelj 4y ago

To everyone reading this - we live in a free country. Nothing stops you from creating a new business as a co-op or employee owned collective or whatever. So many smart people here who are passionate about labor. Just make that into your company from day 1! As a business owner I would never do this. But you could do that yourselves without coercing me into them!

ElevenLathe 4y ago
That's true! It's also true that nothing stops your employees from walking out until they are treated better! There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. Honestly you get more protections if they are part of a recognized union than if their only choice is a wildcat action.
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  > There's no need (or, morally, any possibility) of banning them from forming a group of their coworkers to organize this process. In fact, in the US (and many other countries), it's illegal to do so.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Why should me, as the owner, be unable to fire people trying to unionize? If someone doesn't like a job they can leave. The union is anti-freedom - it restricts what I am able to do with my property (my business).
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    You shouldn't be able to because it's a condition of our allowing your company to exist at all, and it's a law. Incorporation is not a right, it comes with strings attached, though fewer and fewer over time. Even more fundamentally though, why should your employees care about your property? If you're worse off but they're better off, they should do it. Your wellbeing doesn't enter into the decision, just as their wellbeing doesn't enter into yours.