4 ms·

I don't get it. People seem to think that if you ban this practice, you'll get the premium package for free. That's not going to be the case. Currently, you ca

by pxx 4y ago

I don't get it. People seem to think that if you ban this practice, you'll get the premium package for free. That's not going to be the case. Currently, you can pay for heated seats all up-front or via a monthly subscription. This proposed legislation prevents you from paying for it via a monthly subscription. So automakers will stop allowing you to do that. All you've done is limit customer choices.

Larrikin 4y ago
Good, it shouldn't be an option. Killing the subscription model for cars in the crib prevents the subscription model from eventually being your only choice one day.
ianferrel 4y ago
Price discrimination often allows producers to capture more of the surplus for complicated reasons that mostly boil down to the fact that they are the party with more information. A limit on complicated pricing models likely results in some deadweight loss, but may result in higher aggregate consumer surplus. Choice isn't everything.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Price discrimination works fine without subscriptions. They can charge $1000 for heated seats one time rather than monthly. This is entirely orthogonal.
  - ianferrel 4y ago
    Uh... If you have more pricing options, you get more price discrimination. It's not entirely orthogonal.
sublinear 4y ago
Nope. The cost of the hardware is always necessarily still passed on to the customer before they even pay for the subscription to "unlock" it. It's double dipping. It makes no sense to gamble that upsells will be successful in exchange for a more competitive price. There's guaranteed loss with that idea. The components pre-installed must cost something and it's not possible for the manufacturer to get that money back unless they both installed inferior junk nobody wants and then baked it into the price.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  > The cost of the hardware is always necessarily still passed on to the customer before they even pay for the subscription to "unlock" it. That's not true. Razors are the canonical example of a product sold below cost, there are many others. > The components pre-installed must cost something They must cost something, but there's also a significant cost to creating multiple SKU's, and that cost is likely more than the cost of the heated seats.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    On my Jeep Grand Cherokee, without checking I wagered the wiring harness would be the same across the models without heated seats (mine) and with (the junkyard leather seat package I bought). I was surprised to learn I was wrong.
  - sublinear 4y ago
    > That's not true. Razors are the canonical example of a product sold below cost, there are many others. Trivially wrong. Heated seats are not required for a vehicle to function.
Workaccount2 4y ago
> People seem to think that if you ban this practice, you'll get the premium package for free. No, no one thinks that. What people do think is that if they buy it, they will own it, and it will be theirs. Not a rental from a megacorp whose auth servers shit the bed on the coldest day of the year.
- bluGill 4y ago
  The good news is I can not pay for heated seats, and then run my own wire to get it.. it won't look as nice, but it will work
  - bombcar 4y ago
    UNAUTHORIZED VOLTAGE DISCHARGE DETECTED SYSTEM SAFETY MECHANISMS ENGAGED car is now inoperable
    - merely-unlikely 4y ago
      Right to repair laws would help here.
      - userbinator 4y ago
        Right to modify, which is slightly different from right to repair. The latter would only require it legal to restore the original, arguably user-hostile configuration.
- kabdib 4y ago
  Just because you've paid a lump sum doesn't mean that terrible servers aren't involved every time you start your car -- they could just be checking the perma-status of your purchase every time ("for security purposes").
raverbashing 4y ago
> prevents you from paying for it via a monthly subscription And why in tarnation would I pay monthly for something that has a fixed cost to the manufacturer?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I would happily pay $10/mo for 5 months a year for the 4 years I expected to own the car rather than $250-500 to buy heated seats. I don’t care about someone else’s costs; I care about the value I get and the price I’m asked to pay. If someone else makes a profit because they structure the deal smartly, good for them.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    The problem is that you're still paying some subset of that $250-500 (in addition to the subscription fee), because in order to offer the subscription option to anyone, they have to include the hardware in every car, even if a particular owner decided not to buy the subscription. The carmaker has to defray that cost somehow, and that means every car gets a little bit more expensive up front, regardless of whether or not you pay for the subscription. Also I wouldn't be surprised if you're not permitted to buy the subscription on a month-by-month basis, and instead have to buy it in 6-month or 12-month chunks. Maybe some carmakers don't do this, but they can, and some will.
    - leetcrew 4y ago
      I really doubt the per-unit hardware cost to install heated seats is anywhere near what they cost to option. it's not a complex technology, and plenty of cheap cars come with them standard. the manufacturer might even break even on the additional parts cost by only making one kind of seat. or they might make up for it by increasing the margin in some other option that you may or may not choose. who knows?
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Supporting your point: Two-seat aftermarket kits are around $50. I installed one (driver’s side only) in our CR-V and it’s well-worth the time to do so in New England. (If your seat-floorpan bolts aren't too rusty, it was a leisurely 60-90 minute job and would be 30-45 minutes to do the second one.)
nequo 4y ago
Subscription services are a technology for carmakers to practice price discrimination.[1] Price discrimination reallocates consumer surplus to carmakers. It is not good for you unless you're a carmaker. Without subscription services, they only have the option of limiting heated seats to certain trims. If you want heated seats, you can buy one of those trims. But that trim probably comes with other features, too, that contribute to your surplus as a consumer. With subscription services, they can force you to pay for everything feature-by-feature. This is worse for you, better for them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  This is false. Price discrimination is good for consumers that opt out. In the absence of price discrimination the price ends up somewhere in between, which is worse for customers that would have paid less.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

by pxx 4y ago

Larrikin 4y ago

Good, it shouldn't be an option. Killing the subscription model for cars in the crib prevents the subscription model from eventually being your only choice one day.

ianferrel 4y ago

Price discrimination often allows producers to capture more of the surplus for complicated reasons that mostly boil down to the fact that they are the party with more information. A limit on complicated pricing models likely results in some deadweight loss, but may result in higher aggregate consumer surplus. Choice isn't everything.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Price discrimination works fine without subscriptions. They can charge $1000 for heated seats one time rather than monthly. This is entirely orthogonal.
- ianferrel 4y ago
  Uh... If you have more pricing options, you get more price discrimination. It's not entirely orthogonal.

sublinear 4y ago

Nope. The cost of the hardware is always necessarily still passed on to the customer before they even pay for the subscription to "unlock" it. It's double dipping. It makes no sense to gamble that upsells will be successful in exchange for a more competitive price. There's guaranteed loss with that idea. The components pre-installed must cost something and it's not possible for the manufacturer to get that money back unless they both installed inferior junk nobody wants and then baked it into the price.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bryanlarsen 4y ago
> The cost of the hardware is always necessarily still passed on to the customer before they even pay for the subscription to "unlock" it. That's not true. Razors are the canonical example of a product sold below cost, there are many others. > The components pre-installed must cost something They must cost something, but there's also a significant cost to creating multiple SKU's, and that cost is likely more than the cost of the heated seats.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  On my Jeep Grand Cherokee, without checking I wagered the wiring harness would be the same across the models without heated seats (mine) and with (the junkyard leather seat package I bought). I was surprised to learn I was wrong.
- sublinear 4y ago
  > That's not true. Razors are the canonical example of a product sold below cost, there are many others. Trivially wrong. Heated seats are not required for a vehicle to function.

Workaccount2 4y ago

> People seem to think that if you ban this practice, you'll get the premium package for free. No, no one thinks that. What people do think is that if they buy it, they will own it, and it will be theirs. Not a rental from a megacorp whose auth servers shit the bed on the coldest day of the year.

bluGill 4y ago
The good news is I can not pay for heated seats, and then run my own wire to get it.. it won't look as nice, but it will work
- bombcar 4y ago
  UNAUTHORIZED VOLTAGE DISCHARGE DETECTED SYSTEM SAFETY MECHANISMS ENGAGED car is now inoperable
  - merely-unlikely 4y ago
    Right to repair laws would help here.
    - userbinator 4y ago
      Right to modify, which is slightly different from right to repair. The latter would only require it legal to restore the original, arguably user-hostile configuration.
kabdib 4y ago
Just because you've paid a lump sum doesn't mean that terrible servers aren't involved every time you start your car -- they could just be checking the perma-status of your purchase every time ("for security purposes").

raverbashing 4y ago

> prevents you from paying for it via a monthly subscription And why in tarnation would I pay monthly for something that has a fixed cost to the manufacturer?

sokoloff 4y ago
I would happily pay $10/mo for 5 months a year for the 4 years I expected to own the car rather than $250-500 to buy heated seats. I don’t care about someone else’s costs; I care about the value I get and the price I’m asked to pay. If someone else makes a profit because they structure the deal smartly, good for them.
- kelnos 4y ago
  The problem is that you're still paying some subset of that $250-500 (in addition to the subscription fee), because in order to offer the subscription option to anyone, they have to include the hardware in every car, even if a particular owner decided not to buy the subscription. The carmaker has to defray that cost somehow, and that means every car gets a little bit more expensive up front, regardless of whether or not you pay for the subscription. Also I wouldn't be surprised if you're not permitted to buy the subscription on a month-by-month basis, and instead have to buy it in 6-month or 12-month chunks. Maybe some carmakers don't do this, but they can, and some will.
  - leetcrew 4y ago
    I really doubt the per-unit hardware cost to install heated seats is anywhere near what they cost to option. it's not a complex technology, and plenty of cheap cars come with them standard. the manufacturer might even break even on the additional parts cost by only making one kind of seat. or they might make up for it by increasing the margin in some other option that you may or may not choose. who knows?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Supporting your point: Two-seat aftermarket kits are around $50. I installed one (driver’s side only) in our CR-V and it’s well-worth the time to do so in New England. (If your seat-floorpan bolts aren't too rusty, it was a leisurely 60-90 minute job and would be 30-45 minutes to do the second one.)

nequo 4y ago

Subscription services are a technology for carmakers to practice price discrimination.[1] Price discrimination reallocates consumer surplus to carmakers. It is not good for you unless you're a carmaker. Without subscription services, they only have the option of limiting heated seats to certain trims. If you want heated seats, you can buy one of those trims. But that trim probably comes with other features, too, that contribute to your surplus as a consumer. With subscription services, they can force you to pay for everything feature-by-feature. This is worse for you, better for them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
This is false. Price discrimination is good for consumers that opt out. In the absence of price discrimination the price ends up somewhere in between, which is worse for customers that would have paid less.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]