4 ms·

A lot of very exploitative people come into disaster areas. Contractors in times like these have the ability to ask for payment in advance. My own family was a

A lot of very exploitative people come into disaster areas. Contractors in times like these have the ability to ask for payment in advance. My own family was a victim of just such a scam after Andrew - pay in advance and disappear. I'm glad Florida is taking requirements for licensing seriously.

Clent 4y ago
If people wouldn't go insane at the idea, the government should provide lists of contractors, and a public record of what work they've done, and allow homeowner's to cross reference contact data with with family, friends, neighbors. It's a pity that we cannot trust each other enough to pool our data for our common good.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  You are not wrong. This will somehow be characterised as ‘death lists’ or some such crap.
- giantg2 4y ago
  In theory that's not necessary. Contractors are supposed to be licensed and you can research any complaints against them through the licensing board, BBB, etc. And cross-referencing with neighbors etc already happens in the form of referrals. If people aren't going to use the current resources, those same people won't use the new one.
- wingspar 4y ago
  Isn’t the building permit database, which is publicly available, do that?
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Don't we? Most states have reciprocal licensing agreements, which I presume you can check. Florida exempts itself from this (sensible) arrangement. Possibly as a protectionist act; possibly to snare licensing fees. But surely not to protect the consumer.
newaccount74 4y ago
How does arresting people who actually show up to do the work help protect against scammers? I'm all for going after scammers and prosecuting contractors who take dangerous shortcuts. But going after people who do a flawless job because they are missing some local permit is not going to help anyone.
- macinjosh 4y ago
  It does not. It’s a presumption of guilt by the government. You could be a scammer so you have to get a license ‘proving’ you are not. I’d be all for an online registry where you have to register your business and verified contact info so you can be tracked down if you pull something but letting the government decide who can and cannot offer services is a scam. Lookup the requirements for a roofing contractor license in Florida. One of them is “be of good moral character“. Who gets to decide what that means? Imagine if people were as concerned about barriers to earning a living as they were about barriers to voting. https://www.contractorcampus.com/florida-roofing-contractor-license.html https://www.contractorcampus.com/florida-roofing-contractor-...
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > I’d be all for an online registry where you have to register your business and verified contact info so you can be tracked down So an active registry and compliance department that is somehow unconnected with the concept of licensing? That's pushing the costs of proving a given contractor is competent from the contractor to the government. Ideally that would be a far more expensive system. In reality it would be an unfunded, mostly vacant department and a free-for-all for fraud.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    > One of them is “be of good moral character“. Who gets to decide what that means? The Florida legislature gets to decide. > (c) Meet eligibility requirements according to the following criteria: > 1. As used in this subsection, the term “good moral character” means a personal history of honesty, fairness, and respect for the rights of others and for state and federal law. > 2. The board may determine that an individual applying for registration is ineligible due to failure to satisfy the requirement of good moral character only if: > a. There is a substantial connection between the lack of good moral character of the individual and the professional responsibilities of a registered contractor; and > b. The finding by the board of lack of good moral character is supported by clear and convincing evidence. > 3. When an individual is found to be unqualified because of lack of good moral character, the board must furnish such individual a statement containing the findings of the board, a complete record of evidence upon which the determination was based, and a notice of the rights of the individual to a rehearing and an appeal. Seems entirely reasonable. If you have a history of screwing over customers, delivering shoddy work, they can deny your permit. The contractor can appeal their decision and they provide all evidence they used to decide as such.
causality0 4y ago
pay in advance and disappear. I'm glad Florida is taking requirements for licensing seriously. How does one follow from the other? Did the scammer have a valid license from another state? How does refusing to honor licenses from other states have anything to do with "seriousness"?
- cool_dude85 4y ago
  >How does refusing to honor licenses from other states have anything to do with "seriousness"? Whether or not to do reciprocal licensing is a political question. Having chosen not to allow it, I'm glad that Florida is actually enforcing the law against unlicensed contractors instead of looking the other way.
  - causality0 4y ago
    Again, what the hell do the activities of a contractor licensed by another state have to do with your family being scammed? Because so far the answer is "diddly-squat" and your unfortunate situation is completely irrelevant to this issue.
    - cool_dude85 4y ago
      Well, first, licensure imposes a risk on pulling this cut and run game. Namely, your license could easily be revoked by the same authorities who granted it in the same state the act took place in. Second, bonding requirements would have given us a sum of money from which we could have recovered what we lost. Again, money in Florida, for us to go after in Florida courts for the scam that took place in Florida. Any promises about whether a judgment in Tampa would allow potential victims to get ahold of this guy's money in Texas? Or whether his pulling a scam like this would cause his license to be revoked there?
      - causality0 4y ago
        Any promises about whether a judgment in Tampa would allow potential victims to get ahold of this guy's money in Texas? Yes. Or whether his pulling a scam like this would cause his license to be revoked there? Yes it would.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Florida should get their act together with universal licensing recognition. This is the best way to prevent scams. It maximizes the number of reputable contractors, who have something to lose if they abuse customers.
- tqi 4y ago
  While protectionism is certainly a plausible root cause, I don't think would be unreasonable for Florida to think that its climate is unique enough that a roofer from say Maine might not be qualified to understand what is/isn't up to code.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Universal licensing doesn't stop Florida from having that. The way it works with the 18 states that do have it is essentially a fast track waving most of the requirements. Applicants may still be required to pay fees or take exams administered by the board in the recognizing state.
- kkfx 4y ago
  That's another curious aspect for me (I'm from EU): how can such systems prevent scams? Let's say a properly trained and tried company decide to work in the aftermath of a widespread disaster: they'll get many customers spread in a certain area, almost all at the same time. They apparently works well. Few years after quality issues, leaks etc appear. In the meantime that said enterprise have closed, reopening with a slightly different selection of peoples and a different name. How a license system can avoid such events (common here, so to speak)?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Licenses are tied to individuals, so that does something to address the serial offender issue. If individuals are operating with fake names, proxy workers, ect, there is very little that can be done besides track down and arrest the individuals.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kkfx 4y ago
I'm from EU with limited but not null experience of USA bureaucracy and so my question: I understand that taxes vary from a State to another and the arrested person is not there volunteering (meaning working for free) but for business purposes (so a taxed activity) and I suppose he will not pay taxes in the right State due to that license issue, an arrest for that sound exaggerated but anyway, any country choose it's law. What I miss is how such license scheme may be a guarantee against scammers. USA constructions have a very bad quality reputation in UE, laying on par with China, mostly due to the choice to be cheap and quick instead of strong and durable, but a license give no guarantee about how a company really operate. Normally license are obtained after a small bureaucratic procedure who formally give and ensure proper training and often just ensure some friends of friends milking a bit of money in useless and crappy training curses, even if that's not the case in the USA even a well trained professional can choose on purpose to work well or not. So where is the protection?
more_corn 4y ago
Bad people did a bad thing. Go arrest the bad people doing bad things, not the good people trying to help.

Clent 4y ago

If people wouldn't go insane at the idea, the government should provide lists of contractors, and a public record of what work they've done, and allow homeowner's to cross reference contact data with with family, friends, neighbors. It's a pity that we cannot trust each other enough to pool our data for our common good.

lostlogin 4y ago
You are not wrong. This will somehow be characterised as ‘death lists’ or some such crap.
giantg2 4y ago
In theory that's not necessary. Contractors are supposed to be licensed and you can research any complaints against them through the licensing board, BBB, etc. And cross-referencing with neighbors etc already happens in the form of referrals. If people aren't going to use the current resources, those same people won't use the new one.
wingspar 4y ago
Isn’t the building permit database, which is publicly available, do that?
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Don't we? Most states have reciprocal licensing agreements, which I presume you can check. Florida exempts itself from this (sensible) arrangement. Possibly as a protectionist act; possibly to snare licensing fees. But surely not to protect the consumer.

newaccount74 4y ago

How does arresting people who actually show up to do the work help protect against scammers? I'm all for going after scammers and prosecuting contractors who take dangerous shortcuts. But going after people who do a flawless job because they are missing some local permit is not going to help anyone.

macinjosh 4y ago
It does not. It’s a presumption of guilt by the government. You could be a scammer so you have to get a license ‘proving’ you are not. I’d be all for an online registry where you have to register your business and verified contact info so you can be tracked down if you pull something but letting the government decide who can and cannot offer services is a scam. Lookup the requirements for a roofing contractor license in Florida. One of them is “be of good moral character“. Who gets to decide what that means? Imagine if people were as concerned about barriers to earning a living as they were about barriers to voting. https://www.contractorcampus.com/florida-roofing-contractor-license.html https://www.contractorcampus.com/florida-roofing-contractor-...
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > I’d be all for an online registry where you have to register your business and verified contact info so you can be tracked down So an active registry and compliance department that is somehow unconnected with the concept of licensing? That's pushing the costs of proving a given contractor is competent from the contractor to the government. Ideally that would be a far more expensive system. In reality it would be an unfunded, mostly vacant department and a free-for-all for fraud.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  > One of them is “be of good moral character“. Who gets to decide what that means? The Florida legislature gets to decide. > (c) Meet eligibility requirements according to the following criteria: > 1. As used in this subsection, the term “good moral character” means a personal history of honesty, fairness, and respect for the rights of others and for state and federal law. > 2. The board may determine that an individual applying for registration is ineligible due to failure to satisfy the requirement of good moral character only if: > a. There is a substantial connection between the lack of good moral character of the individual and the professional responsibilities of a registered contractor; and > b. The finding by the board of lack of good moral character is supported by clear and convincing evidence. > 3. When an individual is found to be unqualified because of lack of good moral character, the board must furnish such individual a statement containing the findings of the board, a complete record of evidence upon which the determination was based, and a notice of the rights of the individual to a rehearing and an appeal. Seems entirely reasonable. If you have a history of screwing over customers, delivering shoddy work, they can deny your permit. The contractor can appeal their decision and they provide all evidence they used to decide as such.

causality0 4y ago

pay in advance and disappear. I'm glad Florida is taking requirements for licensing seriously. How does one follow from the other? Did the scammer have a valid license from another state? How does refusing to honor licenses from other states have anything to do with "seriousness"?

cool_dude85 4y ago
>How does refusing to honor licenses from other states have anything to do with "seriousness"? Whether or not to do reciprocal licensing is a political question. Having chosen not to allow it, I'm glad that Florida is actually enforcing the law against unlicensed contractors instead of looking the other way.
- causality0 4y ago
  Again, what the hell do the activities of a contractor licensed by another state have to do with your family being scammed? Because so far the answer is "diddly-squat" and your unfortunate situation is completely irrelevant to this issue.
  - cool_dude85 4y ago
    Well, first, licensure imposes a risk on pulling this cut and run game. Namely, your license could easily be revoked by the same authorities who granted it in the same state the act took place in. Second, bonding requirements would have given us a sum of money from which we could have recovered what we lost. Again, money in Florida, for us to go after in Florida courts for the scam that took place in Florida. Any promises about whether a judgment in Tampa would allow potential victims to get ahold of this guy's money in Texas? Or whether his pulling a scam like this would cause his license to be revoked there?
    - causality0 4y ago
      Any promises about whether a judgment in Tampa would allow potential victims to get ahold of this guy's money in Texas? Yes. Or whether his pulling a scam like this would cause his license to be revoked there? Yes it would.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

Florida should get their act together with universal licensing recognition. This is the best way to prevent scams. It maximizes the number of reputable contractors, who have something to lose if they abuse customers.

tqi 4y ago
While protectionism is certainly a plausible root cause, I don't think would be unreasonable for Florida to think that its climate is unique enough that a roofer from say Maine might not be qualified to understand what is/isn't up to code.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Universal licensing doesn't stop Florida from having that. The way it works with the 18 states that do have it is essentially a fast track waving most of the requirements. Applicants may still be required to pay fees or take exams administered by the board in the recognizing state.
kkfx 4y ago
That's another curious aspect for me (I'm from EU): how can such systems prevent scams? Let's say a properly trained and tried company decide to work in the aftermath of a widespread disaster: they'll get many customers spread in a certain area, almost all at the same time. They apparently works well. Few years after quality issues, leaks etc appear. In the meantime that said enterprise have closed, reopening with a slightly different selection of peoples and a different name. How a license system can avoid such events (common here, so to speak)?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Licenses are tied to individuals, so that does something to address the serial offender issue. If individuals are operating with fake names, proxy workers, ect, there is very little that can be done besides track down and arrest the individuals.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kkfx 4y ago

I'm from EU with limited but not null experience of USA bureaucracy and so my question: I understand that taxes vary from a State to another and the arrested person is not there volunteering (meaning working for free) but for business purposes (so a taxed activity) and I suppose he will not pay taxes in the right State due to that license issue, an arrest for that sound exaggerated but anyway, any country choose it's law. What I miss is how such license scheme may be a guarantee against scammers. USA constructions have a very bad quality reputation in UE, laying on par with China, mostly due to the choice to be cheap and quick instead of strong and durable, but a license give no guarantee about how a company really operate. Normally license are obtained after a small bureaucratic procedure who formally give and ensure proper training and often just ensure some friends of friends milking a bit of money in useless and crappy training curses, even if that's not the case in the USA even a well trained professional can choose on purpose to work well or not. So where is the protection?

more_corn 4y ago

Bad people did a bad thing. Go arrest the bad people doing bad things, not the good people trying to help.