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I also use Ubuntu a lot, and while I'm disappointed about this Snap thing, I'm still not looking for alternatives. At least until 22.04 I could dodge snaps pre

I also use Ubuntu a lot, and while I'm disappointed about this Snap thing, I'm still not looking for alternatives. At least until 22.04 I could dodge snaps pretty easily, but now, since Firefox is now a snap package, things went worse, at least for me. I gave it a try and, while the experience was not as bad as I feared, I soon encountered problems with things like trying to use a smartcard reader for signing documents, something that used to work out of the box with the non sanboxed version of Firefox and now it's broken with snaps (or at least some weeks ago). I ended up downloading a Firefox tarball from the official site. I know you can use a PPA for that, but I don't feel comfortable having software as critical as a web browser from a third-party Ubuntu PPA. Maybe I should give Pop OS a try...

stevekemp 4y ago
I run Debian on all my systems, and to be honest firefox is something I always maintain separately. /opt/firefox contains the latest binary download from the official site. The application is one that updates frequently enough that the gain is worthwhile.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  This. The packages make sense for the apps that don't change frequently, but browsers don't match this description.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    It's the opposite of the way things should be. Package managers should have the most utility for applications that update frequently, because isn't the raison d'etre of a package manager to make updating programs easier? Some distros manage to get it right. I haven't had any trouble using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's packaged Firefox.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Firefox is "big ticket", but not "custom made"; one firefox package or installer should suit everybody fine. I think package managers can do very well with Firefox if the package is managed well.
        kzrdude 4y ago
        It's the user's choice how to install Firefox for sure. The opa works fine on ubuntu
        josephg 4y ago
        Exactly. I use Linux mint (without snaps) and Firefox works great. It updates pretty frequently through mint’s software update tool, which is just running apt and installing package updates. All this talk of snaps and using PPAs sounds like a an unnecessary headache. What’s the point of a package manager if it doesn’t keep your packages up to date?
    - chrisallenlane 4y ago
      I've discovered a workflow I'm happy with. I run Debian stable on my workstation, and manage most of my packages with `apt`. As such, everything "just works," and flawlessly. For the handful of packages that I want to upgrade aggressively, I manage them with Nix[1]. I've been doing this for maybe two or three years, and despite a little extra complexity, it feels like a best-of-both worlds scenario. I get the rock-solid stability of Debian stable, but the one or two packages that need to stay cutting-edge are able to do so. I also don't have trouble with package conflicts, because the entire point of Nix is to prevent those kinds of problems. This has been great for me. Do recommend. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager)
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      You are right its not the fact that it updates frequently. It is when the distro package is an inferior option either because of version or build options.
- severino 4y ago
  How do you handle updates? Do you download the new version from the official site from time to time and replace the old one? I know Firefox can "auto-update" itself but I guess it won't (or shouldn't) be allowed to modify things under "/opt" when running as a user process.
  - stevekemp 4y ago
    Yes, I have /opt/firefox-1.2.3 with the various binary downloads, and I have a symlink /opt/firefox which gets updated to point to the latest release. I tend to see new releases announced on lwn.net, and this site, so I just make sure I download it a day or two later so that I'm always current.
nequo 4y ago
Firefox ESR is available in a PPA that is maintained by Mozilla. Even though that's a third party, that's as close to an official package as it gets. I'm just hoping that it will remain available until this snap thing subsides, or until I make the switch to GNU Guix or something. Edit: It seems that the latest stable Firefox is available, too.[1] I thought it was only ESR and that Ubuntu's switch to snap was requested by Mozilla. I'm confused. [1] https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+pack...
- nvrspyx 4y ago
  It seems like they've been including stable, non-ESR builds for at least the last few releases (I only went back a few pages of previous builds). Launchpad is confusing for me, but my impression is that they're using that PPA to build the stable release using the Launchpad service and then packing that build as a snap. It seems like they're just uploading the snap package rather than building it using Launchpad. If that's the case, maybe it's a limitation of Launchpad?
- glandium 4y ago
  AFAIK, that PPA is not maintained by Mozilla. Source: I work for Mozilla.
  - nequo 4y ago
    That ... is good to know. Do you know if Mozilla takes issue with it being called "mozillateam" then?
  - severino 4y ago
    That's what I was afraid of about that PPA (and every PPA I ever used): you can never be sure who's behind a PPA, and who may push an update there :-)
CoastalCoder 4y ago
> Maybe I should give Pop OS a try... I'm a big fan: it's like Ubuntu, but with much of Canonical's divisive changes reverted, and with a few other improvements. I switched from Ubuntu to Pop!_OS a few releases back when I got a System76 computer. (I also use it on my Lenovo laptop.)
- smallerfish 4y ago
  I wish Pop OS would tackle KDE. It's a much better DE (particularly if you like to customize), but there are very few (if any) distributions which have an opinionated tuned experience out of the box.
  - dev_daftly 4y ago
    They are transitioning COSMIC from gnome to be it's own standalone DE built on rust
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    KDE would be superb if it weren't so buggy. KDE is aimed in the right direction, trying to do and be all the things a desktop environment should do and be. But unfortunately the implementation is frequently deficient. Even seemingly basic things frequently break, like re-applying mouse preferences when you unplug and replug your mouse: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435113 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435113 A couple more recent annoyances, of many: Plasma looks great but frequently my panels go missing and don't reappear until I restart plasma shell. Dolphin has all the functionality I want and looks great, but frequently fails to watch directories for new files, forcing me to F5. Lots of little things like this turn into death by a thousand papercuts.
    - imiric 4y ago
      That might be the case, but is there an alternative with a similar feature set? The latest GNOME versions are even buggier, and when it does work, it feels like a toy project compared to KDE. It's baffling to me that it's been years since the v3 controversy, yet the project still doesn't feel as mature and polished as KDE Plasma. All v2 forks also feel like someone's hobby project to bring disparate tools together, rather than a cohesive desktop. I'm sure some MATE and Cinnamon fans would disagree, but IMO the modern desktop experience has moved on since 2010. Similarly with LXDE, Fluxbox and a myriad of others. These are great for certain environments, but none of them can compare to the polish that KDE has, let alone something like macOS. To be fair, I'm not bashing on minimalistic or window manager-only setups. I've been using bspwm on Void Linux for many years now as my main working environment, and wouldn't change it for the world. But when I want to stop being productive, consume content, and not have to troubleshoot issues on my machine, I prefer to use a more featureful environment with a friendlier UI. Since macOS is out of the question, and Windows is purely for gaming (and even that is going away, thanks to Valve), KDE is pretty much my only choice on Linux. Which I've been enjoying for a few months now on NixOS. But I do wonder if there is really a DE that can compare to it. AFAIK more ambitious projects like elementary OS, Deepin and Solus are still experimental, to the point where I don't even keep track of their updates.
pantalaimon 4y ago
I just switched to Chrome, it's available as a .deb from Google.
- tssva 4y ago

stevekemp 4y ago

I run Debian on all my systems, and to be honest firefox is something I always maintain separately. /opt/firefox contains the latest binary download from the official site. The application is one that updates frequently enough that the gain is worthwhile.

bornfreddy 4y ago
This. The packages make sense for the apps that don't change frequently, but browsers don't match this description.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  It's the opposite of the way things should be. Package managers should have the most utility for applications that update frequently, because isn't the raison d'etre of a package manager to make updating programs easier? Some distros manage to get it right. I haven't had any trouble using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's packaged Firefox.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Firefox is "big ticket", but not "custom made"; one firefox package or installer should suit everybody fine. I think package managers can do very well with Firefox if the package is managed well.
      - kzrdude 4y ago
        It's the user's choice how to install Firefox for sure. The opa works fine on ubuntu
      - josephg 4y ago
        Exactly. I use Linux mint (without snaps) and Firefox works great. It updates pretty frequently through mint’s software update tool, which is just running apt and installing package updates. All this talk of snaps and using PPAs sounds like a an unnecessary headache. What’s the point of a package manager if it doesn’t keep your packages up to date?
  - chrisallenlane 4y ago
    I've discovered a workflow I'm happy with. I run Debian stable on my workstation, and manage most of my packages with `apt`. As such, everything "just works," and flawlessly. For the handful of packages that I want to upgrade aggressively, I manage them with Nix[1]. I've been doing this for maybe two or three years, and despite a little extra complexity, it feels like a best-of-both worlds scenario. I get the rock-solid stability of Debian stable, but the one or two packages that need to stay cutting-edge are able to do so. I also don't have trouble with package conflicts, because the entire point of Nix is to prevent those kinds of problems. This has been great for me. Do recommend. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager)
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    You are right its not the fact that it updates frequently. It is when the distro package is an inferior option either because of version or build options.
severino 4y ago
How do you handle updates? Do you download the new version from the official site from time to time and replace the old one? I know Firefox can "auto-update" itself but I guess it won't (or shouldn't) be allowed to modify things under "/opt" when running as a user process.
- stevekemp 4y ago
  Yes, I have /opt/firefox-1.2.3 with the various binary downloads, and I have a symlink /opt/firefox which gets updated to point to the latest release. I tend to see new releases announced on lwn.net, and this site, so I just make sure I download it a day or two later so that I'm always current.

nequo 4y ago

Firefox ESR is available in a PPA that is maintained by Mozilla. Even though that's a third party, that's as close to an official package as it gets. I'm just hoping that it will remain available until this snap thing subsides, or until I make the switch to GNU Guix or something. Edit: It seems that the latest stable Firefox is available, too.[1] I thought it was only ESR and that Ubuntu's switch to snap was requested by Mozilla. I'm confused. [1] https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+pack...

nvrspyx 4y ago
It seems like they've been including stable, non-ESR builds for at least the last few releases (I only went back a few pages of previous builds). Launchpad is confusing for me, but my impression is that they're using that PPA to build the stable release using the Launchpad service and then packing that build as a snap. It seems like they're just uploading the snap package rather than building it using Launchpad. If that's the case, maybe it's a limitation of Launchpad?
glandium 4y ago
AFAIK, that PPA is not maintained by Mozilla. Source: I work for Mozilla.
- nequo 4y ago
  That ... is good to know. Do you know if Mozilla takes issue with it being called "mozillateam" then?
- severino 4y ago
  That's what I was afraid of about that PPA (and every PPA I ever used): you can never be sure who's behind a PPA, and who may push an update there :-)

CoastalCoder 4y ago

> Maybe I should give Pop OS a try... I'm a big fan: it's like Ubuntu, but with much of Canonical's divisive changes reverted, and with a few other improvements. I switched from Ubuntu to Pop!_OS a few releases back when I got a System76 computer. (I also use it on my Lenovo laptop.)

smallerfish 4y ago
I wish Pop OS would tackle KDE. It's a much better DE (particularly if you like to customize), but there are very few (if any) distributions which have an opinionated tuned experience out of the box.
- dev_daftly 4y ago
  They are transitioning COSMIC from gnome to be it's own standalone DE built on rust
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  KDE would be superb if it weren't so buggy. KDE is aimed in the right direction, trying to do and be all the things a desktop environment should do and be. But unfortunately the implementation is frequently deficient. Even seemingly basic things frequently break, like re-applying mouse preferences when you unplug and replug your mouse: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435113 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435113 A couple more recent annoyances, of many: Plasma looks great but frequently my panels go missing and don't reappear until I restart plasma shell. Dolphin has all the functionality I want and looks great, but frequently fails to watch directories for new files, forcing me to F5. Lots of little things like this turn into death by a thousand papercuts.
  - imiric 4y ago
    That might be the case, but is there an alternative with a similar feature set? The latest GNOME versions are even buggier, and when it does work, it feels like a toy project compared to KDE. It's baffling to me that it's been years since the v3 controversy, yet the project still doesn't feel as mature and polished as KDE Plasma. All v2 forks also feel like someone's hobby project to bring disparate tools together, rather than a cohesive desktop. I'm sure some MATE and Cinnamon fans would disagree, but IMO the modern desktop experience has moved on since 2010. Similarly with LXDE, Fluxbox and a myriad of others. These are great for certain environments, but none of them can compare to the polish that KDE has, let alone something like macOS. To be fair, I'm not bashing on minimalistic or window manager-only setups. I've been using bspwm on Void Linux for many years now as my main working environment, and wouldn't change it for the world. But when I want to stop being productive, consume content, and not have to troubleshoot issues on my machine, I prefer to use a more featureful environment with a friendlier UI. Since macOS is out of the question, and Windows is purely for gaming (and even that is going away, thanks to Valve), KDE is pretty much my only choice on Linux. Which I've been enjoying for a few months now on NixOS. But I do wonder if there is really a DE that can compare to it. AFAIK more ambitious projects like elementary OS, Deepin and Solus are still experimental, to the point where I don't even keep track of their updates.

pantalaimon 4y ago

I just switched to Chrome, it's available as a .deb from Google.

tssva 4y ago