5 ms·

I submit that a roomba set to an automatic schedule is conscious under your definition.

jqpabc123 4y ago
I submit there is nothing independent about what a roomba does. It is following a script just like very other piece of software ever written. It doesn't know or care that the result cleans your floor.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Our bodies implement a script, which is our genome. We didn't know or care about that code for the first (million?) years [0], and most of us still don't. Indeed, this lack of awareness of (and lack of regard for) the lower level of our nature, is why we were very happy to invent birth control, and why the people who get upset about the existence of it are seen by the rest of us as a bit odd. [0] Depends what you count as a human/person/creature with consciousness, which is of course the point of this thread. Yay for blurry lines!
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Our bodies implement a script, which is our genome. Our genome is not a script --- more like a blueprint. Once construction is finished, the thoughts and actions of your mind/body are not "scripted" --- unless you *believe* in pre-determination.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      That also describes GPT-3. The hyperperameters are a blueprint. If you don't want to count the data flow in a human brain as "scripted", you can't count the data flow in an artificial neural network as scripted; if you do count the ANN as scripted, then you should also count brains as such. Current AI are, it is worth pointing out, less complex than a human brain: GPT-3 is appropriately the same number of parameters as a rat has synapses, while DALL•E 2 is approximately a honey bee. But the argument you're making has not yet touched scale.
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        That also describes GPT-3. The hyperperameters are a blueprint. Can it diagnose my car engine? It seems to be idling rough and it's using too much gas. Does the throttle body need cleaning or maybe one of the coil packs is failing?
        ben_w 4y ago
        > Can it diagnose my car engine? Probably. My free credit has run out and I've not gotten around to setting up a payment method for more credit, but this kind of random question is the kind of thing it's surprisingly good at.
        jqpabc123 4y ago
        Can it really *diagnose* it --- or will it just put together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight? Does it ever object to answering a question? What does it think about in it's spare time? Is it scared someone will turn it off? The distinction here tends to highlight the difference between consciousness and programming.
        ben_w 4y ago
        > will it just put together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight? Most humans would fail this standard. (Hence the memes "Never read the comments!" and "Eternal September" and widespread beliefs in paranormal and so on). The (surprising to me) difference is that GPT-3 generally does a bit better than, e.g. Hollywood script writers when facing similar prompts. This surprising quality is why GPT-3 led to GitHub Copilot.
        ben_w 4y ago
        Too late to edit the other content, but I think this is a perfect example of humans just putting "together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight" when asked to draw a bicycle from memory: https://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/people-asked-to-draw-bicycles-from-memory-fail-miserably/ https://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/people-asked-to-draw-b...
- FeepingCreature 4y ago
  I certainly hope to never operate independent of my brain and its script! That would be quite worrying. Would the Roomba be conscious if it had a dust sensor? Then it would know that the result cleans the floor.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    I certainly hope to never operate independent of my brain and its script! Are you a robot? Speaking strictly for myself, my brain does not follow a script. I normally operate on my own --- like when I formulated this reply to you.
    - tux3 4y ago
      Next, we may expand the length of this thread threefold by asking you to describe free will, and what it would take under the definition of free will you pick (none of which are very satisfying) for a bio system to not have free will, or for a machine to have it
    - FeepingCreature 4y ago
      I am indeed a meat robot. I think this is at risk of becoming a debate over the word "script". Is it a matter of complexity? Is GPT-3 a script? Is Windows a script, even though it has more bytes of behavioral code than the GPT-3 weights? Will the Roomba be conscious if I replace its programming with a neural network, even if it behaves the same way? What if I add code to randomly vary its behavior? What if I add code to learn at runtime, considering that the learning code is still perfectly static?
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        I am indeed a meat robot. You have my sympathy.

I submit there is nothing independent about what a roomba does. It is following a script just like very other piece of software ever written. It doesn't know or care that the result cleans your floor.

ben_w 4y ago
Our bodies implement a script, which is our genome. We didn't know or care about that code for the first (million?) years [0], and most of us still don't. Indeed, this lack of awareness of (and lack of regard for) the lower level of our nature, is why we were very happy to invent birth control, and why the people who get upset about the existence of it are seen by the rest of us as a bit odd. [0] Depends what you count as a human/person/creature with consciousness, which is of course the point of this thread. Yay for blurry lines!
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Our bodies implement a script, which is our genome. Our genome is not a script --- more like a blueprint. Once construction is finished, the thoughts and actions of your mind/body are not "scripted" --- unless you *believe* in pre-determination.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    That also describes GPT-3. The hyperperameters are a blueprint. If you don't want to count the data flow in a human brain as "scripted", you can't count the data flow in an artificial neural network as scripted; if you do count the ANN as scripted, then you should also count brains as such. Current AI are, it is worth pointing out, less complex than a human brain: GPT-3 is appropriately the same number of parameters as a rat has synapses, while DALL•E 2 is approximately a honey bee. But the argument you're making has not yet touched scale.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      That also describes GPT-3. The hyperperameters are a blueprint. Can it diagnose my car engine? It seems to be idling rough and it's using too much gas. Does the throttle body need cleaning or maybe one of the coil packs is failing?
      - ben_w 4y ago
        > Can it diagnose my car engine? Probably. My free credit has run out and I've not gotten around to setting up a payment method for more credit, but this kind of random question is the kind of thing it's surprisingly good at.
        jqpabc123 4y ago
        Can it really *diagnose* it --- or will it just put together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight? Does it ever object to answering a question? What does it think about in it's spare time? Is it scared someone will turn it off? The distinction here tends to highlight the difference between consciousness and programming.
        ben_w 4y ago
        > will it just put together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight? Most humans would fail this standard. (Hence the memes "Never read the comments!" and "Eternal September" and widespread beliefs in paranormal and so on). The (surprising to me) difference is that GPT-3 generally does a bit better than, e.g. Hollywood script writers when facing similar prompts. This surprising quality is why GPT-3 led to GitHub Copilot.
        ben_w 4y ago
        Too late to edit the other content, but I think this is a perfect example of humans just putting "together a technically correct and properly structured reply that may sound kinda plausible to the uninformed but which lacks any real insight" when asked to draw a bicycle from memory: https://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/people-asked-to-draw-bicycles-from-memory-fail-miserably/ https://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/people-asked-to-draw-b...
FeepingCreature 4y ago
I certainly hope to never operate independent of my brain and its script! That would be quite worrying. Would the Roomba be conscious if it had a dust sensor? Then it would know that the result cleans the floor.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  I certainly hope to never operate independent of my brain and its script! Are you a robot? Speaking strictly for myself, my brain does not follow a script. I normally operate on my own --- like when I formulated this reply to you.
  - tux3 4y ago
    Next, we may expand the length of this thread threefold by asking you to describe free will, and what it would take under the definition of free will you pick (none of which are very satisfying) for a bio system to not have free will, or for a machine to have it
  - FeepingCreature 4y ago
    I am indeed a meat robot. I think this is at risk of becoming a debate over the word "script". Is it a matter of complexity? Is GPT-3 a script? Is Windows a script, even though it has more bytes of behavioral code than the GPT-3 weights? Will the Roomba be conscious if I replace its programming with a neural network, even if it behaves the same way? What if I add code to randomly vary its behavior? What if I add code to learn at runtime, considering that the learning code is still perfectly static?
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      I am indeed a meat robot. You have my sympathy.