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Last time I tried pointing out objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 y

by Garvi 4y ago

Last time I tried pointing out objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers, I don't even know the Russian ones), I was promptly shadowbanned as was every other comment not strictly critical of Russia. People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) and immediately stop relying on social media as their information source. Unfortunately that means HN too for everything political. As a person who studied propaganda as part of my communicology education I have to point out the role social media plays in the current conflict: - social media moderators are the new gatekeepers of information - most social media moderators are working for free - they are working for the gratification - they restrict information according to their own personal biases. They are not the kind of people that check the of information presented. They would rarely go against the will of the community - the resulting effect is an echo chamber in which everyone is in virtual agreement over important issues. This forces most people to rethink their positions or face being ostracized - people that persist, will get continuously silenced until they leave the community - since this is also happening to this forum, expect a drop in comment quality, because many posters are leaving as they are dissuaded from participating in the community In this thread we're talking about the upswing of the Ukranian economy, right after having a big chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in the past few days of bombing. So in case you're wondering how it's possible people believe such nonsense, this is your explanation. They either don't and leave, or for the sake of inclusion in the community, change their views to whatever is being displayed as the overwhelmingly supported position. There is only a slim chance this post won't be removed after minutes and I will probably leave after that.

hackandthink 4y ago
"Here in the U.S., the war has also exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of an ideologically diverse set of foreign-policy commentators: the “anti-imperialists” who routinely justify blatant acts of imperial conquest, and the “realists” who make arguments unmoored from reality." This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-camp-intellectually-bankrupt/671576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-c...
- hbrn 4y ago
  Based on my limited experience, major supporters of Russia invasion among US citizens are either far-right, or far-left. Horseshoe theory has never been so evident.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Many communists in Europe openly support Russia. Maybe they never got the news about 1991. Or Maybe all that talk of anti imperialism was bullshit all along
  - hackandthink 4y ago
    John Mearsheimer may be conservative. But he's not far right. And Kissinger is Kissinger.
    - rat87 4y ago
      No Mearsheimer just extremely conceited to the point he refuses to admit how dead wrong he's been about this whole thing. He actually said that there was no evidence Putin was an imperialist during a debate(the audience laughed at him).
      - Garvi 4y ago
        So the same reaction this audience has to the idea of evolution? You mean similar to people in this thread openly mocking the idea Ukraine couldn't have economic growth this week? What was the audiences reaction when they found out over 1mil died by US hands in Iraq over fabricated evidence by Dick Cheney? He's been proclaimed a hero? I see how this works. What about the murder of Epstein to hide the fact there are some high profile pedophiles in leadership positions in Washington? I bet the story that he was killed, while all those cameras malfunctioned simultaneously has been laughed at way more often. So miracles do happen? Laughing audiences are not a measure of how true or false something is. Only how socially enforced the viewpoint is.
      - hackandthink 4y ago
hulitu 4y ago
I think you are preaching to the choir. Thinking with your own brain is hard, that's why some people like to delegate this task.
zarqan 4y ago
> objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers This is a misrepresentation of facts at best. The "14k" figure being cited here is the total sum of all casualties [1], including 4.400 Ukrainian soldiers and 6.500 Russian & pro-Russian militants. The number of civilian casualties during the entire conflict is 3.404, 8.8% of which are actually attributed to a single incident: The shootdown of MH17 in 2014, where all 298 passangers on board were killed after the aircraft was shot down by Russian militants. [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-...
- wrp 4y ago
  From the report you linked: During the entire conflict period, from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021, OHCHR recorded a total of 3,106 conflict-related civilian deaths (1,852 men, 1,072 women, 102 boys, 50 girls, and 30 adults whose sex is unknown). Taking into account the 298 deaths on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 on 17 July 2014, the total death toll of the conflict on civilians has reached at least 3,404. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000. These monthly reports by the OHCHR give a breakdown of the specific causes and locations of casualties. From an earlier report: During the last six months, from 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020, 84.4 per cent of civilian casualties resulting from shelling and SALW fire were recorded in territory controlled by the self-proclaimed ‘republics’ (27: two killed and 25 injured), and 15.6 percent (five: one killed and four injured) in Government-controlled territory. (https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/conflict-related-civilian-casualties-ukraine-march-2020 https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/conflict-related-civili...) The bulk of civilian casualties since 2014 has been in the rebel regions and inflicted by Ukrainian government forces.
  - zarqan 4y ago
    > From the report you linked Thanks for citing the relevant part. It shows OP is clearly wrong about "14k civilians killed". > These monthly reports by the OHCHR give a breakdown of the specific causes and locations of casualties. From an earlier report: > The bulk of civilian casualties since 2014 has been in the rebel regions and inflicted by Ukrainian government forces. Again, this is another misrepresentation of facts. You are quoting a single monthly report with 3 civilians killed (in total), and are attempting to mislead by 1) extrapolating it to the entire conflict since 2014 and 2) asserting the "bulk" of casualties to be inflicted by Ukraine (The UN report makes no such assertion whatsoever). In 2014, frontlines were highly fluid - going that far back, the term "rebel regions" is essentially meaningless since the borders of these entities did at one point reach Slovyansk (a city that remains under Ukrainian control to this day).
DanG2Point0 4y ago
Most of us have left already so the community is at its lowest point.
hbrn 4y ago
> People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources If the attack was indeed provoked, why does Russian government and media constantly needs to lie about the reasons? Nuclear weapons, US-funded biolabs, Crucified Boy story, Ukraine plans to attack Russia/Belarus, etc? > continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers Russia solution seems to be to bomb Donbass even more with even more casualties in 7 months. No matter how you feel about Ukraine, Russians aren't the good guys here.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  There has never been a more just war than the Russian invasion of Ukraine. In the sense that no other war has had so many different incompatible justifications
NicoJuicy 4y ago
This attack is unprovoked. You're claiming a visit of Merkel is enough to start a war? Let's be real here. Gas was found in Crimea in 2008 and it could replace Russian gas. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-crimea-putin-gains-a-sea-of-fuel-reserves.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-cr... Whatever Russia is claiming about NATO, that ain't it. Fuck Russia. And I'm saying that as a European citizen who is helping Ukranians where i can in my city.
mquander 4y ago
What's so ridiculous to you about the article? I don't know shit about Ukraine, but when you go to zero there's nowhere to go from there but up, so it doesn't sound insane to me that right now it's going up. (I agree that something about the framing seems weird, because it talks about "economic success" but then cites things like "a budget deficit of $38bn next year, equivalent to 19% of pre-war GDP," which doesn't really spark joy.)
credit_guy 4y ago
> believe such nonsense, It's not non-sense. Damage to existing stock and GDP growth are very different things. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it devastated the city. The loss to the US was estimated to be above $100 billion. Still, as far as the GDP was concerned, it was not impacted. GDP is by definition "gross domestic product", and I'll emphasize "product" here. Do the citizens of Ukraine produce more stuff now than they did 6 months ago, or one year ago, or 5 years ago. Well, for one thing, they probably produce more weapons, munitions and military materiel. They are busy fixing stuff destroyed by the invaders. To me it sounds completely plausible that their GDP is increasing, even as their country is being bombed by Russia.
hbrn 4y ago
> People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) FYI, UN observers released a report just 2 days ago. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-AUV-EN.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-A... Sounds like you're saying that Ukrainians somehow provoked this: - Russian armed forces have shot at civilians attempting to flee - summary executions, unlawful confinement, torture, ill-treatment, rape and other sexual violence committed in areas occupied by Russian armed forces - Children have become the victims of the full spectrum of violations investigated by the Commission, including indiscriminate attacks, torture, and rape, suffering the predictable psychological consequences - Victims range from four to over 80 years old. Perpetrators raped the women and girls in their homes or took them and raped them in unoccupied dwellings. In most cases, these acts also amount to torture and cruel or inhumane treatment for the victims and for relatives who were forced to watch. I would recommend everyone saying Ukraine should just concede to read this report. Would you give the same advice if this was happening to your country?

by Garvi 4y ago

hackandthink 4y ago

"Here in the U.S., the war has also exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of an ideologically diverse set of foreign-policy commentators: the “anti-imperialists” who routinely justify blatant acts of imperial conquest, and the “realists” who make arguments unmoored from reality." This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-camp-intellectually-bankrupt/671576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-c...

hbrn 4y ago
Based on my limited experience, major supporters of Russia invasion among US citizens are either far-right, or far-left. Horseshoe theory has never been so evident.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Many communists in Europe openly support Russia. Maybe they never got the news about 1991. Or Maybe all that talk of anti imperialism was bullshit all along
- hackandthink 4y ago
  John Mearsheimer may be conservative. But he's not far right. And Kissinger is Kissinger.
  - rat87 4y ago
    No Mearsheimer just extremely conceited to the point he refuses to admit how dead wrong he's been about this whole thing. He actually said that there was no evidence Putin was an imperialist during a debate(the audience laughed at him).
    - Garvi 4y ago
      So the same reaction this audience has to the idea of evolution? You mean similar to people in this thread openly mocking the idea Ukraine couldn't have economic growth this week? What was the audiences reaction when they found out over 1mil died by US hands in Iraq over fabricated evidence by Dick Cheney? He's been proclaimed a hero? I see how this works. What about the murder of Epstein to hide the fact there are some high profile pedophiles in leadership positions in Washington? I bet the story that he was killed, while all those cameras malfunctioned simultaneously has been laughed at way more often. So miracles do happen? Laughing audiences are not a measure of how true or false something is. Only how socially enforced the viewpoint is.
    - hackandthink 4y ago

hulitu 4y ago

I think you are preaching to the choir. Thinking with your own brain is hard, that's why some people like to delegate this task.

zarqan 4y ago

> objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers This is a misrepresentation of facts at best. The "14k" figure being cited here is the total sum of all casualties [1], including 4.400 Ukrainian soldiers and 6.500 Russian & pro-Russian militants. The number of civilian casualties during the entire conflict is 3.404, 8.8% of which are actually attributed to a single incident: The shootdown of MH17 in 2014, where all 298 passangers on board were killed after the aircraft was shot down by Russian militants. [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-...

wrp 4y ago
From the report you linked: During the entire conflict period, from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021, OHCHR recorded a total of 3,106 conflict-related civilian deaths (1,852 men, 1,072 women, 102 boys, 50 girls, and 30 adults whose sex is unknown). Taking into account the 298 deaths on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 on 17 July 2014, the total death toll of the conflict on civilians has reached at least 3,404. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000. These monthly reports by the OHCHR give a breakdown of the specific causes and locations of casualties. From an earlier report: During the last six months, from 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020, 84.4 per cent of civilian casualties resulting from shelling and SALW fire were recorded in territory controlled by the self-proclaimed ‘republics’ (27: two killed and 25 injured), and 15.6 percent (five: one killed and four injured) in Government-controlled territory. (https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/conflict-related-civilian-casualties-ukraine-march-2020 https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/conflict-related-civili...) The bulk of civilian casualties since 2014 has been in the rebel regions and inflicted by Ukrainian government forces.
- zarqan 4y ago
  > From the report you linked Thanks for citing the relevant part. It shows OP is clearly wrong about "14k civilians killed". > These monthly reports by the OHCHR give a breakdown of the specific causes and locations of casualties. From an earlier report: > The bulk of civilian casualties since 2014 has been in the rebel regions and inflicted by Ukrainian government forces. Again, this is another misrepresentation of facts. You are quoting a single monthly report with 3 civilians killed (in total), and are attempting to mislead by 1) extrapolating it to the entire conflict since 2014 and 2) asserting the "bulk" of casualties to be inflicted by Ukraine (The UN report makes no such assertion whatsoever). In 2014, frontlines were highly fluid - going that far back, the term "rebel regions" is essentially meaningless since the borders of these entities did at one point reach Slovyansk (a city that remains under Ukrainian control to this day).

DanG2Point0 4y ago

Most of us have left already so the community is at its lowest point.

hbrn 4y ago

> People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources If the attack was indeed provoked, why does Russian government and media constantly needs to lie about the reasons? Nuclear weapons, US-funded biolabs, Crucified Boy story, Ukraine plans to attack Russia/Belarus, etc? > continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers Russia solution seems to be to bomb Donbass even more with even more casualties in 7 months. No matter how you feel about Ukraine, Russians aren't the good guys here.

cuteboy19 4y ago
There has never been a more just war than the Russian invasion of Ukraine. In the sense that no other war has had so many different incompatible justifications

NicoJuicy 4y ago

This attack is unprovoked. You're claiming a visit of Merkel is enough to start a war? Let's be real here. Gas was found in Crimea in 2008 and it could replace Russian gas. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-crimea-putin-gains-a-sea-of-fuel-reserves.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-cr... Whatever Russia is claiming about NATO, that ain't it. Fuck Russia. And I'm saying that as a European citizen who is helping Ukranians where i can in my city.

mquander 4y ago

What's so ridiculous to you about the article? I don't know shit about Ukraine, but when you go to zero there's nowhere to go from there but up, so it doesn't sound insane to me that right now it's going up. (I agree that something about the framing seems weird, because it talks about "economic success" but then cites things like "a budget deficit of $38bn next year, equivalent to 19% of pre-war GDP," which doesn't really spark joy.)

credit_guy 4y ago

> believe such nonsense, It's not non-sense. Damage to existing stock and GDP growth are very different things. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it devastated the city. The loss to the US was estimated to be above $100 billion. Still, as far as the GDP was concerned, it was not impacted. GDP is by definition "gross domestic product", and I'll emphasize "product" here. Do the citizens of Ukraine produce more stuff now than they did 6 months ago, or one year ago, or 5 years ago. Well, for one thing, they probably produce more weapons, munitions and military materiel. They are busy fixing stuff destroyed by the invaders. To me it sounds completely plausible that their GDP is increasing, even as their country is being bombed by Russia.

hbrn 4y ago

> People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) FYI, UN observers released a report just 2 days ago. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-AUV-EN.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-A... Sounds like you're saying that Ukrainians somehow provoked this: - Russian armed forces have shot at civilians attempting to flee - summary executions, unlawful confinement, torture, ill-treatment, rape and other sexual violence committed in areas occupied by Russian armed forces - Children have become the victims of the full spectrum of violations investigated by the Commission, including indiscriminate attacks, torture, and rape, suffering the predictable psychological consequences - Victims range from four to over 80 years old. Perpetrators raped the women and girls in their homes or took them and raped them in unoccupied dwellings. In most cases, these acts also amount to torture and cruel or inhumane treatment for the victims and for relatives who were forced to watch. I would recommend everyone saying Ukraine should just concede to read this report. Would you give the same advice if this was happening to your country?