3 ms·

Once they were done shooting all of the engineers for "wrecking" and got around to training a new generation and got all of the western blueprints back from the

by ch4s3 4y ago

Once they were done shooting all of the engineers for "wrecking" and got around to training a new generation and got all of the western blueprints back from the NKVD they really got to work! [*edit] If you're downvoting I suggest you read about the waves of purges of engineers[1][2][3] that continued well after the Stalinist purges. Moreover in this context we're talking about a ship powered with a nuclear reactor, and it's well known that Soviet reactor designs were stolen from the West[4] in the early days. Also it's a joke, lighten up. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrecking_(Soviet_Union) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrecking_(Soviet_Union) [2] https://www.egr.msu.edu/~amezqui3/personal/extracts/the_gulag_archipelago.pdf https://www.egr.msu.edu/~amezqui3/personal/extracts/the_gula... [3] https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/en/document/nkvd-mass-secret-national-operations-august-1937-november-1938.html https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resista... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies

vkou 4y ago
I think most of the downvotes aren't because of your claims about the purges, but because of your wink-nudge implication that Soviet engineers and mathematicians could not achieve anything of note without espionage.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Well to be clear what I'm saying is that they literally murdered a whole generation of engineers, scientists, and technicians. What are you supposed to do from that starting point? Had they not captured train loads of Nazi scientists and literally stollen every significant piece of technology developed in the west for 20+ years it would have taken them FAR FAR longer to develop a lot of this stuff independently. They essentially cut themselves off from the global community and purged all of their talent. They had to bootstrap science and engineering somehow. No doubt, absent the stalinist purges and closing off of the USSR, then Soviet scientists could have equally participated in the science and engineering going on in the rest of the world.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Everybody and their mother went after Nazi scientists, scientist from the loosing side of the war. von Braun got NASA to the moon and his ex collegues got the satelite for the USSR into space. The USSR lost the technology race in the late 70s and early 80s, up to that point it was close enough to call it even. And that was long after Stalin.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      You’re missing my point. The Soviets sent basically all of their scientists and engineers to the front, the GULAG, or to a wall. They had NO way to jumpstart jumpstart science and engineering without espionage and captured scientists a it’s incredibly well documented that whole Soviet industries sprang out of NKVD activities.
      - avmich 4y ago
        The point you seem to be missing is that even with all that, Soviets both had their own ideas, their own implementation of ideas and got ahead of the West in some of the areas. Yes, I'd agree that harsh societal environment greatly diminished the possible outcome - and also that lots of spying was being done by Soviets (to say nothing about the West). > to the front, the GULAG, or to a wall Right, but still, after Stalin's death, USSR had a renaissance of sorts - art, science, tech, quality of life improvements across the board. Still not enough to win the Cold War - was likely impossible - but enough to maintain for some time the lead in some areas and be not terribly outpaced in most others. Unfortunately, effects (and conditions) of Khrushchev Thaw could hardly be repeated, and until Gorbachev the country leadership wasn't allowing enough of progress. One of the points of the article, I believe, is to remind that USSR had their own achievements.
        ch4s3 4y ago
        I’m not missing that at all, they did some novel stuff like their work with phages. But the whole of their nuclear industry and several others were built on NKVD theft. And the all of it was fueled by grain stolen from Ukraine and mines and logging camps full of millions of slaves. The brutality in my opinion overshadows everything else.
thesaintlives 4y ago
[flagged]

by ch4s3 4y ago

vkou 4y ago

I think most of the downvotes aren't because of your claims about the purges, but because of your wink-nudge implication that Soviet engineers and mathematicians could not achieve anything of note without espionage.

ch4s3 4y ago
Well to be clear what I'm saying is that they literally murdered a whole generation of engineers, scientists, and technicians. What are you supposed to do from that starting point? Had they not captured train loads of Nazi scientists and literally stollen every significant piece of technology developed in the west for 20+ years it would have taken them FAR FAR longer to develop a lot of this stuff independently. They essentially cut themselves off from the global community and purged all of their talent. They had to bootstrap science and engineering somehow. No doubt, absent the stalinist purges and closing off of the USSR, then Soviet scientists could have equally participated in the science and engineering going on in the rest of the world.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Everybody and their mother went after Nazi scientists, scientist from the loosing side of the war. von Braun got NASA to the moon and his ex collegues got the satelite for the USSR into space. The USSR lost the technology race in the late 70s and early 80s, up to that point it was close enough to call it even. And that was long after Stalin.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    You’re missing my point. The Soviets sent basically all of their scientists and engineers to the front, the GULAG, or to a wall. They had NO way to jumpstart jumpstart science and engineering without espionage and captured scientists a it’s incredibly well documented that whole Soviet industries sprang out of NKVD activities.
    - avmich 4y ago
      The point you seem to be missing is that even with all that, Soviets both had their own ideas, their own implementation of ideas and got ahead of the West in some of the areas. Yes, I'd agree that harsh societal environment greatly diminished the possible outcome - and also that lots of spying was being done by Soviets (to say nothing about the West). > to the front, the GULAG, or to a wall Right, but still, after Stalin's death, USSR had a renaissance of sorts - art, science, tech, quality of life improvements across the board. Still not enough to win the Cold War - was likely impossible - but enough to maintain for some time the lead in some areas and be not terribly outpaced in most others. Unfortunately, effects (and conditions) of Khrushchev Thaw could hardly be repeated, and until Gorbachev the country leadership wasn't allowing enough of progress. One of the points of the article, I believe, is to remind that USSR had their own achievements.
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        I’m not missing that at all, they did some novel stuff like their work with phages. But the whole of their nuclear industry and several others were built on NKVD theft. And the all of it was fueled by grain stolen from Ukraine and mines and logging camps full of millions of slaves. The brutality in my opinion overshadows everything else.

thesaintlives 4y ago

[flagged]