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"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" p

"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.

nightski 4y ago
So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.
- lupire 4y ago
  What are you talking about? "Low to mid income" people also sleep at some time during the night or day.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LarryDarrell 4y ago
    Higher electricity prices at night will hit the poor who will be driving older EVs with degraded batteries. They'll have to charge all night so that they can make your McMuffin at 7am. They will also have to drive from further away because we also can't get a handle on housing prices in this country. Higher earners live closer to work. In addition to being able to afford the higher nighttime rates, their workplace may also offer charging as a perk. So you see, those with money form their opinions about electricity pricing schemes involving the invisible hand that has already been so kind to them.
- wcoenen 4y ago
  Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it would be good if consumers had the _option_ of eliminating some of that premium, in exchange for demand shifting.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LarryDarrell 4y ago
    This is all kind of theoretical. Low income people rent from landlords that will not install EV charging infrastructure unless the Federal Government pays for it. So the correct answer is c) buy a 2005 Honda Civic.
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    EVs are going to screw low income people via Sky High Electricity prices. Electricity will become an expensive commodity. Look at prices in the UK and Europe. It's already starting to happen (but not because of EVs). Just wait till EVs become pervasive. All that demand for electricity.
    - _skel 4y ago
      What is happening in the UK and Europe right now is a preview of a future where fossil fuel supply is rapidly curtailed before alternatives are ready. It's a cautionary tale about moving too fast in the right direction. It's easy to say "stop oil now" and things like that, but the reality is that there is only so much suffering the population will take before they turn to right-wing populist politicians who promise to roll back the progress that has been made, or their governments bankrupt themselves by subsidizing the pain away. These changes need to be made gradually.
      - nathanaldensr 4y ago
        > These changes need to be made gradually. Or not at all. Not everyone believes as you do.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- twblalock 4y ago
  A lot of things about the switch to EVs will screw over low-income people, at least for a while. The price floor for used EVs is going to be higher than the price floor for used gas cars. You won't be able to buy a $1000 hoopty EV with 200k miles on it because it will need several thousand dollars in replacement batteries to be drivable. Therefore the price floor will be the cost of replacement batteries. At the same time, banning new gas car sales will drive up the value of older gas cars as people scramble to hoard them, resulting in price increases for used gas cars which will also hurt low-income people.
bjornsing 4y ago
Here in Sweden a lot of people are switching to hourly pricing plans. I just made the switch myself. So far electricity is much cheaper at night though.
twblalock 4y ago
PG&E in California already offers multiple time-of-use pricing options, including one just for EVs. They still can't keep the lights on during a heat wave because people run their air conditioners and are willing to pay the peak rates to do so. Imagine the same level of demand, but with mass EV adoption on top of it, as well as the state planning to ban gas appliances and shift all the load for cooking and heating onto the grid. That is the future we are headed toward. Right now, EV ownership is largely restricted to homeowners who can install charging stations. Building more EV charging stations without beefing up the power grid, which will make it more practical for apartment dwellers to own electric cars, will result in even more demand for electricity at all times of the day. You can tinker with time-of-use rates all you want, but the only real solution is to have a much better power grid. People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  > but the only real solution how about $1000 (10kwh @ EV prices) battery or so at every household?
  - twblalock 4y ago
    That's pretty similar to this idea, which I already mentioned: > People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon. It's not realistic to expect a broken utility like PG&E to pull that off anytime soon. Most utilities in the United States are as bad as, or worse than, PG&E. Another aspect of this, which I am going through myself with my own EV charger install at my new house, is that many homes need retrofitting to be able to charge an EV or install one of those batteries. I need my electrical panel replaced. Every other house in my neighborhood was built at the same time by the same builder and is going to need a new panel too, if they haven't done it already -- and we aren't talking about old houses, these were built in the 1960s. For many homes, a charger or a battery will require $4k-6k of additional upgrades.

nightski 4y ago

So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.

lupire 4y ago
What are you talking about? "Low to mid income" people also sleep at some time during the night or day.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LarryDarrell 4y ago
  Higher electricity prices at night will hit the poor who will be driving older EVs with degraded batteries. They'll have to charge all night so that they can make your McMuffin at 7am. They will also have to drive from further away because we also can't get a handle on housing prices in this country. Higher earners live closer to work. In addition to being able to afford the higher nighttime rates, their workplace may also offer charging as a perk. So you see, those with money form their opinions about electricity pricing schemes involving the invisible hand that has already been so kind to them.
wcoenen 4y ago
Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it would be good if consumers had the _option_ of eliminating some of that premium, in exchange for demand shifting.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LarryDarrell 4y ago
  This is all kind of theoretical. Low income people rent from landlords that will not install EV charging infrastructure unless the Federal Government pays for it. So the correct answer is c) buy a 2005 Honda Civic.
- theironhammer 4y ago
  EVs are going to screw low income people via Sky High Electricity prices. Electricity will become an expensive commodity. Look at prices in the UK and Europe. It's already starting to happen (but not because of EVs). Just wait till EVs become pervasive. All that demand for electricity.
  - _skel 4y ago
    What is happening in the UK and Europe right now is a preview of a future where fossil fuel supply is rapidly curtailed before alternatives are ready. It's a cautionary tale about moving too fast in the right direction. It's easy to say "stop oil now" and things like that, but the reality is that there is only so much suffering the population will take before they turn to right-wing populist politicians who promise to roll back the progress that has been made, or their governments bankrupt themselves by subsidizing the pain away. These changes need to be made gradually.
    - nathanaldensr 4y ago
      > These changes need to be made gradually. Or not at all. Not everyone believes as you do.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
twblalock 4y ago
A lot of things about the switch to EVs will screw over low-income people, at least for a while. The price floor for used EVs is going to be higher than the price floor for used gas cars. You won't be able to buy a $1000 hoopty EV with 200k miles on it because it will need several thousand dollars in replacement batteries to be drivable. Therefore the price floor will be the cost of replacement batteries. At the same time, banning new gas car sales will drive up the value of older gas cars as people scramble to hoard them, resulting in price increases for used gas cars which will also hurt low-income people.

bjornsing 4y ago

Here in Sweden a lot of people are switching to hourly pricing plans. I just made the switch myself. So far electricity is much cheaper at night though.

twblalock 4y ago

PG&E in California already offers multiple time-of-use pricing options, including one just for EVs. They still can't keep the lights on during a heat wave because people run their air conditioners and are willing to pay the peak rates to do so. Imagine the same level of demand, but with mass EV adoption on top of it, as well as the state planning to ban gas appliances and shift all the load for cooking and heating onto the grid. That is the future we are headed toward. Right now, EV ownership is largely restricted to homeowners who can install charging stations. Building more EV charging stations without beefing up the power grid, which will make it more practical for apartment dwellers to own electric cars, will result in even more demand for electricity at all times of the day. You can tinker with time-of-use rates all you want, but the only real solution is to have a much better power grid. People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon.

dzhiurgis 4y ago
> but the only real solution how about $1000 (10kwh @ EV prices) battery or so at every household?
- twblalock 4y ago
  That's pretty similar to this idea, which I already mentioned: > People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon. It's not realistic to expect a broken utility like PG&E to pull that off anytime soon. Most utilities in the United States are as bad as, or worse than, PG&E. Another aspect of this, which I am going through myself with my own EV charger install at my new house, is that many homes need retrofitting to be able to charge an EV or install one of those batteries. I need my electrical panel replaced. Every other house in my neighborhood was built at the same time by the same builder and is going to need a new panel too, if they haven't done it already -- and we aren't talking about old houses, these were built in the 1960s. For many homes, a charger or a battery will require $4k-6k of additional upgrades.