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> For me, the primary obstacle to my joining the Ordinariate is the requirement of absolute (rather than conditional) ordinations and confirmations for people c
by User23 4y ago
> For me, the primary obstacle to my joining the Ordinariate is the requirement of absolute (rather than conditional) ordinations and confirmations for people coming over from Anglicanism. To me, submitting to that would be an implicit admission that I was effectively just “playing church” for all the years I’ve been a priest. It would be to acknowledge that the sacraments (baptism excepted) that I’ve administered to my people were in some sense a sham.
I can see where you're coming from and I bet I'd feel the same if I were in your shoes. I'm just a lay Catholic who likes to read, but I also can't see any reason a conditional conferral of those sacraments should be a problem. Of course as a somewhat educated lay Catholic I'm obliged to believe what the Church teaches with respect to Anglican orders, but as you say I think there's some nuance there and I don't claim to understand the theological technicalities. Nevertheless, I think it's fair to say that we both believe Apostolic succession is of vital importance to the Church that Jesus personally founded and that we're both members of.
I would however urge you to never view your current ministry as in any respect a sham, regardless of where God guides you. I do believe that some of the goofier Episcopalians are playing Church, especially the ones ordaining women and otherwise going all in on scandal of various sorts, but that's not you. Obviously I don't know you, but based on charity and your other comments I'm inclined to believe that God has conferred real and significant graces on you to aid in your ministry.
> After much research and prayer, I remain convinced that my orders are valid, and I cannot in good conscience consent to the repetition of two sacraments of character (namely, confirmation and ordination).
Given those conditions, your position is entirely theologically sound to my understanding and I wouldn't dream of telling you to go against your conscience. I'm no apologist so I won't try to change your mind, but know that I'll pray for you and that I wish you the most successful possible ministry. I'll also pray that the Catholic hierarchy understands and properly addresses the concerns you have and share with many other Anglicans.
> Beyond that, I have some objections to a few of the papal claims
There's a fair bit the various Popes have said that I also disagree with where I'm free to do so.
> Plus, I’m not convinced there is much of a future for the Ordinariate. I’ll be surprised if it makes it a full generation before it disappears or is effectively suppressed, as the TLM communities have been.
Yes, the current Pope's desire to enforce uniformity at the expense of unity strikes me as grossly imprudent and a huge step back from the achievements of his two immediate predecessors. It would appear that some of the hierarchy have a paranoid fantasy of sedevacantists hiding behind every copy of the 1962 Roman missal. All I can do is pray for him and them and accept that perhaps they have knowledge that I don't that makes these apparently wrong decisions make sense. But in any event, popes come and go—it's the magisterium that endures. That's not to dismiss the reality that the successor of Peter is the visible head of the Church, but I'm confident that Latin will not only retain its place in the Latin rite, but its role will continue to grow, by the grace of God.
I'm a little surprised that the Ordinariate is getting caught up in that panic though. It's indisputable that no Anglican seeking communion with Rome can possibly be a sedevacantist. Similarly I'm not aware of any movement to suppress any of the eastern rites. But there's much that I'm not aware of, so take that with a grain of salt.
God bless you.
- cbfrench 4y ago>I also can't see any reason a conditional conferral of those sacraments should be a problem. Honestly, I do understand where Rome is coming from on this question. There is a sufficient diversity in Anglican sacramental theology regarding the priesthood that it probably makes sense from Rome's side of the table to insist upon ordination de novo for every Anglican priest coming over. It saves the trouble of having to conduct an investigation of the circumstances of every Anglican ordination. Plus, with some of the changes in the Episcopal Church and the Church of England in the past fifty years, I do think there are valid questions (no pun intended) about the status of some of those ordinations. (I'm in a jurisdiction that has, thankfully, avoided those problems.) I just wish there was some flexibility in making a determination about whether or not a conditional ordination is warranted in some cases. >Nevertheless, I think it's fair to say that we both believe Apostolic succession is of vital importance to the Church that Jesus personally founded and that we're both members of. Absolutely. And it's a mark of real ecumenical progress over the past century that we can affirm that we are indeed both members of the Church that Christ founded--even if we're in a state of imperfect communion. >I'm no apologist so I won't try to change your mind, but know that I'll pray for you and that I wish you the most successful possible ministry. I truly appreciate your prayers and your kind and charitable comments. Be assured of my prayers as well. I wish more of these conversations went this way rather than devolving into opportunities to score argumentative points, which often seems to happen. As I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate more and more the fact that we're probably approaching a point where many of the less-significant divisions among "small-c catholics" (i.e., orthodox Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.) will fade away as we lose the luxury of clinging to what separates us. And I do believe the Petrine See will necessarily play an essential role in the future unity of the Church, whatever that looks like. I do hope that the Ordinariate continues to exist and to thrive. The Anglican patrimony has much to offer Rome, and the Roman tradition has much to offer in terms of correcting Anglicanism and bringing it back into the historical mainstream of the Western Catholic tradition. I'm convinced that tradition was never lost in Anglicanism; it simply became somewhat submerged (which Unitatis Redintegratio 13 acknowledges). A prayer from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (American) that I often pray: "O God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, our only Saviour, the Prince of Peace; Give us grace seriously to lay to heart the great dangers we are in by our unhappy divisions. Take away all hatred and prejudice, and whatsoever else may hinder us from godly union and concord: that as there is but one Body and one Spirit, and one hope of our calling, one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of us all, so we may be all of one heart and of one soul, united in one holy bond of truth and peace, of faith and charity, and may with one mind and one mouth glorify thee; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." That line about "lay[ing] to heart the great dangers we are in by our unhappy divisions" always strikes me. May those unhappy divisions cease. Thanks again for a good conversation. And God bless you, too!