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I'm trying to point out an equally impactful predicament, civilizations don't generally survive sustained population collapses. I don't think that averting a th

I'm trying to point out an equally impactful predicament, civilizations don't generally survive sustained population collapses. I don't think that averting a theoretical disaster caused by resource exhaustion is worth creating an almost guaranteed disaster due to forcibly reducing population levels (and it is force whether done through law, propaganda or inequitable incentives). If "planetary boundaries" are a problem (which I think is not the case since technology can make more use out of less material and energy by increasing efficiency or creating alternate methods of accomplishing the same tasks, but I digress) then we must go beyond them, cowering within them will just give us and our children a slow and painful death.

seltzered_ 4y ago
Hmm, you're arguing to attempt to get to a 'stage two civilization' per the kardashev scale, and while I agree there's all sorts of issues with attempting policy-level change I keep seeing a lot of energy/material/ecological blindness with such arguments to go beyond boundaries. Feel like our conversation might go along the lines of this conversation between Nate Hagens and Sebastian Heitmann: https://youtu.be/9Y6BvCVKC_E?t=2665 https://youtu.be/9Y6BvCVKC_E?t=2665 "since technology can make more use out of less material and energy by increasing efficiency or creating alternate methods of accomplishing the same tasks" - I keep thinking we're falling into the 'jevon's paradox' here without sufficient systemic accounting or feedbacks.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  It's a worthy goal to at least attempt to complete our transition to a Type I civilization and begin work on Type II, the line is probably quite blurry since any type of space exploitation moves you towards II but is quite possible before completing I. I don't doubt the validity of Jevon's paradox but I think it's implications are not negative. From Wikipedia's article on it " increased the efficiency of coal use led to the increased consumption of coal in a wide range of industries" the key point there is that the increased consumption came from a wider application of the technology in areas where it was not able to be used before. This led to higher output and innovation in those industries which further accelerated the industrial revolution. A modern example would be Moore's law which has improved efficiency in transistor production, spreading the technology to almost every other industry resulting in further increases in efficiency and many revolutions and breakthroughs.

seltzered_ 4y ago

Hmm, you're arguing to attempt to get to a 'stage two civilization' per the kardashev scale, and while I agree there's all sorts of issues with attempting policy-level change I keep seeing a lot of energy/material/ecological blindness with such arguments to go beyond boundaries. Feel like our conversation might go along the lines of this conversation between Nate Hagens and Sebastian Heitmann: https://youtu.be/9Y6BvCVKC_E?t=2665 https://youtu.be/9Y6BvCVKC_E?t=2665 "since technology can make more use out of less material and energy by increasing efficiency or creating alternate methods of accomplishing the same tasks" - I keep thinking we're falling into the 'jevon's paradox' here without sufficient systemic accounting or feedbacks.

throwaway4aday 4y ago
It's a worthy goal to at least attempt to complete our transition to a Type I civilization and begin work on Type II, the line is probably quite blurry since any type of space exploitation moves you towards II but is quite possible before completing I. I don't doubt the validity of Jevon's paradox but I think it's implications are not negative. From Wikipedia's article on it " increased the efficiency of coal use led to the increased consumption of coal in a wide range of industries" the key point there is that the increased consumption came from a wider application of the technology in areas where it was not able to be used before. This led to higher output and innovation in those industries which further accelerated the industrial revolution. A modern example would be Moore's law which has improved efficiency in transistor production, spreading the technology to almost every other industry resulting in further increases in efficiency and many revolutions and breakthroughs.