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There's a big difference - US actually has a highly efficient rail freight network.

Retric 4y ago
The US’s rail network isn’t that different than the EU’s. The average freight rail trip in the EU are much shorter which makes rail less competitive relative to trucks. That has nothing to do with the rail network and is instead a function of EU’s economy. The difference in utilization largely comes down to geography and politics. America’s flyover states and high population coasts just fit rail really well.
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  > The average freight rail trip in the EU are much shorter which makes rail less competitive relative to trucks. Which makes rail freight in US much more different, doesn't it? We cannot discount competitiveness when comparing rail networks in economics context. The fact that US rail freight is so much more efficient makes any argument for internal water based transport much less sound.
  - Retric 4y ago
    > Which makes rail freight in US much more different, doesn't it? It makes US rail less efficient vs EU rail, but more competitive compared to US trucking.
crisdux 4y ago
Sure, maybe that explains why Europe has made more progress with their inland transportation network. But what I said is still true. Transporting freight via river systems is cheaper and greener than using road and rail. The gap will widen as energy and transportation costs continue to increase. The United States has the largest internal waterways system in the world, and we basically only use it for bulk goods.
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  I disagree that rail in US is much more polluting, than internal waterway transport. In Europe - yes, but not US.
  - noahtallen 4y ago
    I don’t understand: why would rail pollution be worse in Europe, which has electrification initiatives for even freight rail, than in the US, where the rail duopolies and monopolies use old diesel locomotives and never invest in meaningful system upgrades?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
      Oh, really? https://www.railway-technology.com/news/wabtec-union-pacific-locomotive-contract/ https://www.railway-technology.com/news/wabtec-union-pacific...
      - noahtallen 4y ago
        Fair, but still diesel.
    - JAlexoid 4y ago
      Diesel electric engines are actually VERY efficient. Even the "old diesel" locomotives are still easily 40% efficient.
      - noahtallen 4y ago
        Ok, sure. But wouldn’t a large natural gas electric turbine be even more efficient? The thing about electric motors is the energy source is abstracted. So even if you’re generating electricity with gas, it’s usually much more efficient than a small localized engine. So I think my point stands, if EU is electrifying its networks, I don’t understand how the US could possibly be more efficient.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
anigbrowl 4y ago
As does Europe?
- mlindner 4y ago
  Europe's rail freight is not very efficient actually.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    Isn't it? The thing is both you and the GP seem to be handwaving it. Efficient in what sense? Is freight rail in Europe slower, more expensive, dirtier, and if so how much? Or do they just measure/account for externalities differently? It doesn't require an essay to put assertions about efficiency in context.
bell-cot 4y ago
Ah. Depends on what you mean by "highly efficient". From both memory and a quick Google on "2022 u.s. railroad problems", there are plenty of major problems with the U.S. freight RR system. Especially if you try to assume that it has (or can easily add) a bunch of spare capacity. (Short version - each of the major U.S. freight RR's is more-or-less a monopoly in the part of the U.S. which it serves. If management relentlessly optimizes for profitability, and doesn't much care about customer service, shipping delays, sustainable staffing levels, etc... Well, I'm sure RR management has enjoyed some fat profit-sharing bonus checks.)
- mlindner 4y ago
  Except those "monopolies" ship freight at drastically lower prices than their European counterparts. US rail has it's problems but freight rail is not one of them.
  - Retric 4y ago
    4/5th of EU rail traffic is passenger trains which changes a great deal about how each system operates. The EU actually has more track miles per person than the US and vastly more electrified lines, they even pay less for rail infrastructure projects etc, but freight traffic very much plays second fiddle. The US on the other hand allows for much heavier and slower freight trains. It’s very good at moving heavy stable bulk loads like coal and corn long distances, but less so about moving perishable goods. US freight trips to Mexico can take as long as 45-60 days but those trips are really cheap per ton/mile.

The US’s rail network isn’t that different than the EU’s. The average freight rail trip in the EU are much shorter which makes rail less competitive relative to trucks. That has nothing to do with the rail network and is instead a function of EU’s economy. The difference in utilization largely comes down to geography and politics. America’s flyover states and high population coasts just fit rail really well.

JAlexoid 4y ago
> The average freight rail trip in the EU are much shorter which makes rail less competitive relative to trucks. Which makes rail freight in US much more different, doesn't it? We cannot discount competitiveness when comparing rail networks in economics context. The fact that US rail freight is so much more efficient makes any argument for internal water based transport much less sound.
- Retric 4y ago
  > Which makes rail freight in US much more different, doesn't it? It makes US rail less efficient vs EU rail, but more competitive compared to US trucking.

crisdux 4y ago

Sure, maybe that explains why Europe has made more progress with their inland transportation network. But what I said is still true. Transporting freight via river systems is cheaper and greener than using road and rail. The gap will widen as energy and transportation costs continue to increase. The United States has the largest internal waterways system in the world, and we basically only use it for bulk goods.

JAlexoid 4y ago
I disagree that rail in US is much more polluting, than internal waterway transport. In Europe - yes, but not US.
- noahtallen 4y ago
  I don’t understand: why would rail pollution be worse in Europe, which has electrification initiatives for even freight rail, than in the US, where the rail duopolies and monopolies use old diesel locomotives and never invest in meaningful system upgrades?
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    Oh, really? https://www.railway-technology.com/news/wabtec-union-pacific-locomotive-contract/ https://www.railway-technology.com/news/wabtec-union-pacific...
    - noahtallen 4y ago
      Fair, but still diesel.
  - JAlexoid 4y ago
    Diesel electric engines are actually VERY efficient. Even the "old diesel" locomotives are still easily 40% efficient.
    - noahtallen 4y ago
      Ok, sure. But wouldn’t a large natural gas electric turbine be even more efficient? The thing about electric motors is the energy source is abstracted. So even if you’re generating electricity with gas, it’s usually much more efficient than a small localized engine. So I think my point stands, if EU is electrifying its networks, I don’t understand how the US could possibly be more efficient.
- ROTMetro 4y ago

anigbrowl 4y ago

As does Europe?

mlindner 4y ago
Europe's rail freight is not very efficient actually.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Isn't it? The thing is both you and the GP seem to be handwaving it. Efficient in what sense? Is freight rail in Europe slower, more expensive, dirtier, and if so how much? Or do they just measure/account for externalities differently? It doesn't require an essay to put assertions about efficiency in context.

bell-cot 4y ago

Ah. Depends on what you mean by "highly efficient". From both memory and a quick Google on "2022 u.s. railroad problems", there are plenty of major problems with the U.S. freight RR system. Especially if you try to assume that it has (or can easily add) a bunch of spare capacity. (Short version - each of the major U.S. freight RR's is more-or-less a monopoly in the part of the U.S. which it serves. If management relentlessly optimizes for profitability, and doesn't much care about customer service, shipping delays, sustainable staffing levels, etc... Well, I'm sure RR management has enjoyed some fat profit-sharing bonus checks.)

mlindner 4y ago
Except those "monopolies" ship freight at drastically lower prices than their European counterparts. US rail has it's problems but freight rail is not one of them.
- Retric 4y ago
  4/5th of EU rail traffic is passenger trains which changes a great deal about how each system operates. The EU actually has more track miles per person than the US and vastly more electrified lines, they even pay less for rail infrastructure projects etc, but freight traffic very much plays second fiddle. The US on the other hand allows for much heavier and slower freight trains. It’s very good at moving heavy stable bulk loads like coal and corn long distances, but less so about moving perishable goods. US freight trips to Mexico can take as long as 45-60 days but those trips are really cheap per ton/mile.