4 ms·

Legislation has nothing to do with it. Staffing ratio minimums are 6:1 in California, which means $2000/child can get you pretty far. The costs are the same as

by jmole 4y ago

Legislation has nothing to do with it. Staffing ratio minimums are 6:1 in California, which means $2000/child can get you pretty far. The costs are the same as any other service industry - you have to pay more for higher quality teachers and you have to pay more for a location in more expensive areas.

lupire 4y ago
You think $2000/month after taxes is a good price?
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  There is no such thing as a “good” price. It might just be that the supply of labor to enable the price that people desire for childcare does not exist.
  - setr 4y ago
    Childcare (specifically thinking of daycare) strikes me as a low-skill job, so labor volume should be fairly high -- excluding I guess things like extra-filtering for background. And as far as I can think of, there's no substantial upfront costs outside of the normal elements -- building, room setup, initial training, etc. It also strikes me as something that can be done with some scalability -- a decent sized group of children can presumably be supported by relatively few adults. At least proven by schools, which can have like a 1:16 - 1:24 teacher:child ratio. So it seems strange to me that each child would cost ~$15/hr -- the full cost of a single low-skill resource, 1:1 with children; You're not seeing the scalability of groups kick in. Unless there's some overhead per-child I don't understand, it seems clear this isn't simply supply/demand. There are many who want childcare, but there are many more who should be capable of supporting it. There are also of course difference in popularity/quality which will contribute to a price gradient, but if you're seeing $2k/mo/child as your "basic daycare" costs, there's something up -- there's no inherent reason to the job that I can think of that would stop someone from undercutting that price point.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Why are you assuming a job that is presumably low skill has a high supply of people willing to sell their time to perform that low skill job? > Unless there's some overhead per-child I don't understand I would start with liability costs, it must be massive for a professional daycare facility given how emotionally invested people are with their kids. Next would be redundancy of employees. Babies and toddlers transmit tons of germs, and so the adults around them would get sick too. Plus legally mandated ratios means there has to be adequate coverage for vacations, sick days, emergencies, turn over, etc. And the population of working age people continues to decline, so I would not associate low skill with high supply of labor. I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a daycare employee. I also would not describe managing multiple babies and toddlers properly as low skill, or at least not low effort. It seems to be very strenuous, and I do not think I could do it.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Low effort certainly not! Low skill, yes - perhaps not for the life-saving training needed, but I suspect most any able-bodied adult can be trained how to care for an infant or toddler in a week or so (after all, parents get zero training beyond "you need a car seat" when sent home from the hospital). Whether there are people able and willing at the price listed, I don't know. It seems a job that could be done by teenagers (at least as assistants, supervised) but I suspect they are prohibited.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Teenagers are usually in school at the same time kids are in daycare.
      - setr 4y ago
        > Why are you assuming a job that is presumably low skill has a high supply of people willing to sell their time to perform that low skill job? Because there’s a low barrier to entry, people want money, and unless it were particularly horrible or life-threatening, if you’re going to find a high supply of labor anywhere, it’s going to be in a low-skill job? > I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a daycare employee. I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a McDonald’s employee, or a bank teller, or a pool cleaner, or a gardener, yet I seem to find quite a few of them. It’s low-skill — you don’t need a 4-year degree and aspirations to get into it. You just need to want money, and have no better options. > I would start with liability costs, it must be massive for a professional daycare facility given how emotionally invested people are with their kids But that’d be the same with anything taking responsibility over handling kids — eg summer schools, camps, extra-carriculars, etc. I’m sure they have good margins (parents throw money at anything supporting children), but I don’t think they’re getting barraged by insurance premiums for it. Legal ratios might help explain it, but that’s part of the “something is going on outside of labor supply/demand”.
- conductr 4y ago
  Nitpick but it's tax deductible in the end, but yes after taxes up front
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Only $7k per kid per year is tax deductible, and that only went into effect starting 2021.
- newshorts 4y ago
  We were paying $3k or higher per kid when we lived in the Bay Area. Some people might be coming from a very different perspective on what constitutes a good price.
ch4s3 4y ago
Staffing ratios differ by state and municipality. In NY the ration is 1:2 for children 2 and under, for example and there are group size caps per facility. As I mentioned there's also a whole licensing regime that is quite expensive to obtain and maintain.

by jmole 4y ago

lupire 4y ago

You think $2000/month after taxes is a good price?

lotsofpulp 4y ago
There is no such thing as a “good” price. It might just be that the supply of labor to enable the price that people desire for childcare does not exist.
- setr 4y ago
  Childcare (specifically thinking of daycare) strikes me as a low-skill job, so labor volume should be fairly high -- excluding I guess things like extra-filtering for background. And as far as I can think of, there's no substantial upfront costs outside of the normal elements -- building, room setup, initial training, etc. It also strikes me as something that can be done with some scalability -- a decent sized group of children can presumably be supported by relatively few adults. At least proven by schools, which can have like a 1:16 - 1:24 teacher:child ratio. So it seems strange to me that each child would cost ~$15/hr -- the full cost of a single low-skill resource, 1:1 with children; You're not seeing the scalability of groups kick in. Unless there's some overhead per-child I don't understand, it seems clear this isn't simply supply/demand. There are many who want childcare, but there are many more who should be capable of supporting it. There are also of course difference in popularity/quality which will contribute to a price gradient, but if you're seeing $2k/mo/child as your "basic daycare" costs, there's something up -- there's no inherent reason to the job that I can think of that would stop someone from undercutting that price point.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Why are you assuming a job that is presumably low skill has a high supply of people willing to sell their time to perform that low skill job? > Unless there's some overhead per-child I don't understand I would start with liability costs, it must be massive for a professional daycare facility given how emotionally invested people are with their kids. Next would be redundancy of employees. Babies and toddlers transmit tons of germs, and so the adults around them would get sick too. Plus legally mandated ratios means there has to be adequate coverage for vacations, sick days, emergencies, turn over, etc. And the population of working age people continues to decline, so I would not associate low skill with high supply of labor. I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a daycare employee. I also would not describe managing multiple babies and toddlers properly as low skill, or at least not low effort. It seems to be very strenuous, and I do not think I could do it.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Low effort certainly not! Low skill, yes - perhaps not for the life-saving training needed, but I suspect most any able-bodied adult can be trained how to care for an infant or toddler in a week or so (after all, parents get zero training beyond "you need a car seat" when sent home from the hospital). Whether there are people able and willing at the price listed, I don't know. It seems a job that could be done by teenagers (at least as assistants, supervised) but I suspect they are prohibited.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Teenagers are usually in school at the same time kids are in daycare.
    - setr 4y ago
      > Why are you assuming a job that is presumably low skill has a high supply of people willing to sell their time to perform that low skill job? Because there’s a low barrier to entry, people want money, and unless it were particularly horrible or life-threatening, if you’re going to find a high supply of labor anywhere, it’s going to be in a low-skill job? > I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a daycare employee. I have never heard anyone tell their child to aspire to become a McDonald’s employee, or a bank teller, or a pool cleaner, or a gardener, yet I seem to find quite a few of them. It’s low-skill — you don’t need a 4-year degree and aspirations to get into it. You just need to want money, and have no better options. > I would start with liability costs, it must be massive for a professional daycare facility given how emotionally invested people are with their kids But that’d be the same with anything taking responsibility over handling kids — eg summer schools, camps, extra-carriculars, etc. I’m sure they have good margins (parents throw money at anything supporting children), but I don’t think they’re getting barraged by insurance premiums for it. Legal ratios might help explain it, but that’s part of the “something is going on outside of labor supply/demand”.
conductr 4y ago
Nitpick but it's tax deductible in the end, but yes after taxes up front
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Only $7k per kid per year is tax deductible, and that only went into effect starting 2021.
newshorts 4y ago
We were paying $3k or higher per kid when we lived in the Bay Area. Some people might be coming from a very different perspective on what constitutes a good price.

ch4s3 4y ago

Staffing ratios differ by state and municipality. In NY the ration is 1:2 for children 2 and under, for example and there are group size caps per facility. As I mentioned there's also a whole licensing regime that is quite expensive to obtain and maintain.