4 ms·

>How much longer can we keep subjecting people to colonialism? Puerto Ricans call themselves subjects of colonialism yet continually reject both statehood and

>How much longer can we keep subjecting people to colonialism? Puerto Ricans call themselves subjects of colonialism yet continually reject both statehood and complete independence. It seems like Puerto Ricans want the worst of both worlds.

myroon5 4y ago
Multiple referendums in the last decade where Puerto Ricans voted for statehood: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_refer... US government's rejecting Puerto Rico's statehood
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  a third of the votes in the 2012 were blank in protest. Can not say that that vote proved anything at all. The 2020 vote seems definitive enough though, although it was quite close.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Even as a protest vote an intentional abstention still supports the majority. (At least according to Robert's Rules. Which I know isn't directly applicable to referendums such as this but is still a useful interpretative lens.)
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      Well the abstainers were explicitly against being a state so I don’t think it makes sense to just put them with the majority.
      - WorldMaker 4y ago
        The abstainers weren't being explicit about that in the vote itself. They left an implicit vote so it could be (and was!) interpreted however one liked. That said, most of my awareness is Wikipedia and second-hand account, but I heard most of the abstainers weren't protesting "against statehood" but against the meaningless nature of the vote itself because it was non-binding to anyone, its results weren't going to be used to do anything (and indeed did not ultimately matter other than a couple of wishy-washy President Obama words but no actions). I'm probably wrong on that interpretation, too, but the two votes after the 2012 vote seem to align with that: there is a desire for statehood over alternatives, but that there also seems to a feeling of neglect that they can vote all they want and Congress itself has yet to certify the votes or to make the necessary movements towards an actual, binding vote.
- hedora 4y ago
  Yeah; the democrats said this would be a priority under Biden (giving them two free senate seats!), but haven't moved on it. I suspect Manchin and pals want to make sure we continue to be ruled by a minority of the voters.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Manchin is in the Democratic caucus. Even if you think he generally votes R, he gives the Democrats a majority for rules issues and committees, making him far more D friendly than any R.
colinmhayes 4y ago
Turns out different people want different things.
JAlexoid 4y ago
PR voted for statehood THREE TIMES already... THREE!!! (2012, 2017, 2020) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_political_status_plebiscites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_political_status_p...
lazide 4y ago
Puerto Rico currently benefits from massive federal grants and subsidies, while having a power structure/leadership that doesn’t have to report/be accountable to the US gov’t in certain ways, and doesn’t have the same taxation. For instance, most Puerto Rico residents don’t need to pay federal income taxes. It leads to some interesting incentives for folks there, especially in gov’t, if they know how to poke certain populist buttons. The voting demographics also favor one party over the other, if one cares to look, and if admitted as a state may cause swings and imbalances in the current two-party detente. This is similar to Washington D.C. The current balance has a lot of defacto non-obvious benefits for politicians that their constituents might not appreciate if they fully knew about them.
- DoughnutHole 4y ago
  > For instance, most Puerto Rico residents don’t need to pay federal income taxes. Most US households in general haven't paid federal income tax in the past couple of years. In a good year it's close to 50-50.
  - lazide 4y ago
    There is a difference between ‘required to do the math, but gets money back/doesn’t owe anything’ and ‘completely exempt’. Puerto Rico is exempt except for certain classes of payments (mainly ‘money directly from the feds’ and ‘money that is intentionally going straight back to the mainland’. There is a whole ecosystem of companies in the island for instance which use this for tax arbitrage, providing services for mainland folks at lower rates because of it, which they couldn’t do if they had the same tax rates. The economy there is… unusual, partially because of it’s current semi-favored situation. If it had to play in an even playing field from the mainland US, it isn’t clear what it would look like, but it would probably shift to even more of a resort/retirement place (like Hawaii), which is not to the locals benefit in many cases. At least if they want jobs that aren’t just hospitality type jobs, which aren’t for everyone.

myroon5 4y ago

Multiple referendums in the last decade where Puerto Ricans voted for statehood: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_refer... US government's rejecting Puerto Rico's statehood

colinmhayes 4y ago
a third of the votes in the 2012 were blank in protest. Can not say that that vote proved anything at all. The 2020 vote seems definitive enough though, although it was quite close.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Even as a protest vote an intentional abstention still supports the majority. (At least according to Robert's Rules. Which I know isn't directly applicable to referendums such as this but is still a useful interpretative lens.)
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Well the abstainers were explicitly against being a state so I don’t think it makes sense to just put them with the majority.
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      The abstainers weren't being explicit about that in the vote itself. They left an implicit vote so it could be (and was!) interpreted however one liked. That said, most of my awareness is Wikipedia and second-hand account, but I heard most of the abstainers weren't protesting "against statehood" but against the meaningless nature of the vote itself because it was non-binding to anyone, its results weren't going to be used to do anything (and indeed did not ultimately matter other than a couple of wishy-washy President Obama words but no actions). I'm probably wrong on that interpretation, too, but the two votes after the 2012 vote seem to align with that: there is a desire for statehood over alternatives, but that there also seems to a feeling of neglect that they can vote all they want and Congress itself has yet to certify the votes or to make the necessary movements towards an actual, binding vote.
hedora 4y ago
Yeah; the democrats said this would be a priority under Biden (giving them two free senate seats!), but haven't moved on it. I suspect Manchin and pals want to make sure we continue to be ruled by a minority of the voters.
- lupire 4y ago
  Manchin is in the Democratic caucus. Even if you think he generally votes R, he gives the Democrats a majority for rules issues and committees, making him far more D friendly than any R.

colinmhayes 4y ago

Turns out different people want different things.

JAlexoid 4y ago

PR voted for statehood THREE TIMES already... THREE!!! (2012, 2017, 2020) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_political_status_plebiscites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_political_status_p...

lazide 4y ago

Puerto Rico currently benefits from massive federal grants and subsidies, while having a power structure/leadership that doesn’t have to report/be accountable to the US gov’t in certain ways, and doesn’t have the same taxation. For instance, most Puerto Rico residents don’t need to pay federal income taxes. It leads to some interesting incentives for folks there, especially in gov’t, if they know how to poke certain populist buttons. The voting demographics also favor one party over the other, if one cares to look, and if admitted as a state may cause swings and imbalances in the current two-party detente. This is similar to Washington D.C. The current balance has a lot of defacto non-obvious benefits for politicians that their constituents might not appreciate if they fully knew about them.

DoughnutHole 4y ago
> For instance, most Puerto Rico residents don’t need to pay federal income taxes. Most US households in general haven't paid federal income tax in the past couple of years. In a good year it's close to 50-50.
- lazide 4y ago
  There is a difference between ‘required to do the math, but gets money back/doesn’t owe anything’ and ‘completely exempt’. Puerto Rico is exempt except for certain classes of payments (mainly ‘money directly from the feds’ and ‘money that is intentionally going straight back to the mainland’. There is a whole ecosystem of companies in the island for instance which use this for tax arbitrage, providing services for mainland folks at lower rates because of it, which they couldn’t do if they had the same tax rates. The economy there is… unusual, partially because of it’s current semi-favored situation. If it had to play in an even playing field from the mainland US, it isn’t clear what it would look like, but it would probably shift to even more of a resort/retirement place (like Hawaii), which is not to the locals benefit in many cases. At least if they want jobs that aren’t just hospitality type jobs, which aren’t for everyone.