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I think the point that folks are trying to make here is that by treating these boys as actors in a system ("conscious bias to correct unconscious bias") is esse

I think the point that folks are trying to make here is that by treating these boys as actors in a system ("conscious bias to correct unconscious bias") is essentially mistreatment via failure to see and treat them as individuals. Teachers should in theory be focusing on the betterment of all of their students as individuals and it is messed up if they are intentionally treating some students worse (lower grades for work of the same quality in this case) in pursuit of some higher goals.

throwaway290 4y ago
Wait, are you saying education system in general is broken? Absolutely agreed. It's just not the topic in question. In a better system there would be no grades, but as long as we have a system centered around grades and discussing an article about gender bias in grading that's the topic. And within it it's bordering on deliberate, malevolent ignorance to say "oh no, boys are being mistreated by receiving slightly worse grades" without acknowledging that before that girls were discriminated against incomparably more strongly and while it's not ideal it would seem as if there are attempts to improve the system here. The original argument was that there was an unconscious bias against girls before, and I posit that conscious bias is the only way to correct for unconscious bias, and sometimes conscious bias overcompensates without any ill intent (because humans are complicated and your unconscious bias against a person is not something you can measure with a stick, my wild guess is the "unconscious" part might have something to do with that). Someone tell me this is wrong, I am yet to see a single argument how. Second, one of the guesses in the conclusions section of the paper explicitly states that it could all be simply the effect of teachers trying to use whatever they think is effective for the betterment of the students: they might think boys would be motivated to work harder if they are given lower grades while to girls failure is destructive and they need constant encouragement. Is the original intent good? Sure why not. Is this sexist though? Absolutely. Is withholding failure from girls only strengthens fear of failure in them, hurting them in the long run, while making boys more prepared for competitive environment outside the school system? Should this be more of concern than hurting boys by giving them slightly lower grades? I'd say so.
- mkr-hn 4y ago
  It doesn't stop at grades. That's the problem. People inclined to discriminate are not discriminating in their discrimination. When I say mistreatment, I mean being sent to the principal for made up reasons because the teacher just doesn't like you. Ignoring bullies terrorizing you right in front of her because "you need to man up." Stuff like that. People who decide to get even by treating some people different are not good people who actually care about the people they're discriminating against. They have contempt for those people and want to see them suffer.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    You are still talking past me and past the topic. Please stop bringing child abuse into a discussion about slight correction of grades. Comparing these two you are trivializing the former, doing a major disservice to actual victims of abuse and bullying, being at best disingenuous and I have to try very hard to not think about what could motivate you in this crusade. PS. I am yet to hear an argument as to how you correct an unconscious bias without introducing a conscious bias. You have presented none. Come back when you are done moving the goalposts and willing to stay on topic
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mkr-hn 4y ago
      You seem determined to misunderstand and misrepresent me. I don't know if you're just having a bad day or doing it on purpose, so I'm going to move on and let you figure yourself out.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        You seem to bring some wild things to a single simple idea of bias in grades. Making this discussion about mistreatment and abuse is as appropriate as insisting on talking about sexual assault at the workplace in a discussion about gender salary discrepancy. Like sure, maybe you were traumatized by school experience, some of us were too, it's just not what the question is about. You can be traumatized by school with perfectly even grades as easily as you can have the most fulfilling experience even if teacher marked you up or down slightly when grading (eg like in the paper encouraging you with lower or higher grades according to what motivates you), these are just orthogonal.

throwaway290 4y ago

Wait, are you saying education system in general is broken? Absolutely agreed. It's just not the topic in question. In a better system there would be no grades, but as long as we have a system centered around grades and discussing an article about gender bias in grading that's the topic. And within it it's bordering on deliberate, malevolent ignorance to say "oh no, boys are being mistreated by receiving slightly worse grades" without acknowledging that before that girls were discriminated against incomparably more strongly and while it's not ideal it would seem as if there are attempts to improve the system here. The original argument was that there was an unconscious bias against girls before, and I posit that conscious bias is the only way to correct for unconscious bias, and sometimes conscious bias overcompensates without any ill intent (because humans are complicated and your unconscious bias against a person is not something you can measure with a stick, my wild guess is the "unconscious" part might have something to do with that). Someone tell me this is wrong, I am yet to see a single argument how. Second, one of the guesses in the conclusions section of the paper explicitly states that it could all be simply the effect of teachers trying to use whatever they think is effective for the betterment of the students: they might think boys would be motivated to work harder if they are given lower grades while to girls failure is destructive and they need constant encouragement. Is the original intent good? Sure why not. Is this sexist though? Absolutely. Is withholding failure from girls only strengthens fear of failure in them, hurting them in the long run, while making boys more prepared for competitive environment outside the school system? Should this be more of concern than hurting boys by giving them slightly lower grades? I'd say so.

mkr-hn 4y ago
It doesn't stop at grades. That's the problem. People inclined to discriminate are not discriminating in their discrimination. When I say mistreatment, I mean being sent to the principal for made up reasons because the teacher just doesn't like you. Ignoring bullies terrorizing you right in front of her because "you need to man up." Stuff like that. People who decide to get even by treating some people different are not good people who actually care about the people they're discriminating against. They have contempt for those people and want to see them suffer.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  You are still talking past me and past the topic. Please stop bringing child abuse into a discussion about slight correction of grades. Comparing these two you are trivializing the former, doing a major disservice to actual victims of abuse and bullying, being at best disingenuous and I have to try very hard to not think about what could motivate you in this crusade. PS. I am yet to hear an argument as to how you correct an unconscious bias without introducing a conscious bias. You have presented none. Come back when you are done moving the goalposts and willing to stay on topic
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mkr-hn 4y ago
    You seem determined to misunderstand and misrepresent me. I don't know if you're just having a bad day or doing it on purpose, so I'm going to move on and let you figure yourself out.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      You seem to bring some wild things to a single simple idea of bias in grades. Making this discussion about mistreatment and abuse is as appropriate as insisting on talking about sexual assault at the workplace in a discussion about gender salary discrepancy. Like sure, maybe you were traumatized by school experience, some of us were too, it's just not what the question is about. You can be traumatized by school with perfectly even grades as easily as you can have the most fulfilling experience even if teacher marked you up or down slightly when grading (eg like in the paper encouraging you with lower or higher grades according to what motivates you), these are just orthogonal.