5 ms·

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities i

by z9znz 4y ago

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after work often involves a much greater time cost, thereby reducing the likelihood that someone will partake of the opportunity. So office work is more likely just office work with no after-work fun. Just like most people in the US have no clue what life is like in the big EU cities, most Europeans have no idea how different US life is. I've lived both, and I can say without question that it's easier to have a fun office+after-office experience in a city like Amsterdam or Berlin (or London probably) than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities. OP likely doesn't factor this in and comes to the naive conclusion that it must mean we don't like talking to people.

lynndotpy 4y ago
This is my experience. I’m working from home, but the commute is 2.5h round trip, driving. That’s time, money, energy, and risk for tenuous benefits.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
You may be right, but as a personal anecdote, I totally agree with the sentiment you're responding to. I don't particularly enjoy working from the office and much prefer doing so from home, but I can tolerate it. I like my colleagues and shooting the breeze with them, but they're not my friends. But boy do I absolutely hate my commute, to the point that it shadows whatever positives there are when working from the office. I live and work in Paris (proper), a "big EU city with plenty of things to do". My commute is less than one hour each way by public transit (and I'm lucky enough that my line is rarely affected by random incidents or strikes). But boy do I hate it with a passion. It's time that is basically wasted. Yes, I read a bit, but it's much worse than if I took the time to read sitting in my sofa. I also get a bit of exercise, but again, it's much worse than if I went for a stroll at a more convenient time. It's a block of time that is fairly fixed during the day and which is tiring without getting much of anything in return.
- ghaff 4y ago
  In the US, I have about a five minute drive to the nearby train station and then I'm something over an hour by train and subway into the city depending upon where I'm going. Aside from not being able to actually walk to the train station, I'm not sure how you improve on that given the distance no matter what country you're in. And having done that commute about 3 days a week for over a year, it was pretty bad even though I wasn't driving.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    Your public transport options are not common for most US dwellers. There are 10s of millions of people in the US who don't have access to any real public transport, especially trains.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Yes, I think it probably is uncommonly good for the US--all the hate the MBTA gets notwithstanding. But that's sort of my point. The city has relatively good public transit that is pretty much as convenient to me as is reasonable. And the commute still sucks. (I'm pretty far out but not unreasonably so.)
  - petsfed 4y ago
    I think the way to improve that is to somehow lower the cost of housing, such that workers can afford to live close enough to the office to minimize the time cost of commuting. When I was commuting in the Bay Area, I'd walk half a mile to the local BART station (a walk I rather enjoyed), then I'd spend the next 90 minutes on a bus or train until I arrived at work. If I got to BART after 6am, I'd stand on the train for the first 60 minutes. Then I'd reverse the whole thing on the way home, although I typically got on the train early enough that I could sit the whole ride home. All of that, because that is what I could afford to do. The funny thing is, if I was paid at my hourly equivalent for all of that time spent commuting, I could afford to live closer to the office. I don't know that I like working from home per se, but I definitely hated that I spent 1-3 hours a day, every day, traveling, when I could be doing something I wanted to do. My ability to have hobbies, or spend meaningful time with my family, is basically blunted by the fact that I can't afford to house my family close to where I work. Its better now that I'm out of the Bay Area, but it's still a problem, and will be a problem, for the foreseeable future.
slothtrop 4y ago
I suspect commute/transport is the larger factor among the two you shared. The extracurricular usually comes down to eating and drinking. I'm sure particularly in the mid-west the options are more limited, but in a large enough city there's somewhere to go - it just might not be worth it. You'll still have to commute home in the end, and if you can't just walk to the fun destination from work then that's more time lost. This all raises an interesting point. I wonder if attitudes towards WFH can be predicated by zoning / city density. Even before COVID was a thing, Japan's reputation for instance is for the expectation of going out drinking with the boss after work.
- z9znz 4y ago
  > WFH can be predicated by zoning / city density I would add nature as an opposite factor to city density. A lot of magical places exist, but they don't usually have offices and jobs. Remote work enables one to experience them. Many years ago I had been remote working for a couple of years and then realized that I didn't have to continue living in Dallas with 100+ degree summers and air quality warnings several days each month. I moved to a ski resort area in the Colorado mountains. Even without the time flexibility that I had (which enabled me to snowski on weekdays when the slopes were empty... fresh powder all mine!), the summers were bliss with dozens of mountainbike trails of all degrees of difficulty. Needless to say my physical fitness became the best of my life, without effort (it was "play"!) That was probably my favorite place to live (and work) in the world, even counting beaches in Phuket, Thailand. The nature options were beyond what most people can imagine. The only reason I left was lack of available remote work when my job ended in 2011. So I moved to Amsterdam for a job and got to experience the oppsite but also awesome lifestyle. I would suggest remote workers take advantage of their freedom and spend some time in different places. My ski resort location was planned just as a month, but I stayed three years because it was so great. Such a thing just wouldn't have been possible had I been working in an office. One can always go back to a company with an office after exploring the alternatives.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    There are magical places, though they seem a tad less magical when they get overcrowded. I see owning a piece of 'magic' as a level of privilege that I don't think we can expect most middle-or-above class workers to indulge in without decimating away the magic, unless the population finally drops.
ghaff 4y ago
It really depends where you live both in Europe and the US. Many people in Europe have long commutes (and even public transportation can be time-consuming). At least some number of people in the US whose companies have city offices choose to live in the city and walk/cycle/take public transit but many do not. If I were to commute to our city office it's something like 3 hours round trip daily. Even being able to go 95% of the way by train, that's exhausting. (I did it for 18 months half-time with another company. It was not sustainable.) However, I could also--if I chose--live within walking distance and certainly easy public transit distance of our office. I choose not to do so because I like my semi-rural house. But if I did live a short walk away from our office I would go in semi-regularly. And can certainly understand someone who lives and works in a city wanting to go into an office--especially given they probably live in a relatively small apartment. >than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities. Dallas yes. Denver has a pretty nice downtown. Boston, Manhattan, even San Francisco. It's a matter of where the office is and where you choose to live.
- z9znz 4y ago
  > especially given they probably live in a relatively small apartment. Yeah, I can very much sympathize with people... some of my ex-colleagues in fact... who lived in small apartments (and even shared apartments with others) during the COVID forced work from home times. Oh and people with kids, especially small ones... A lot of people in nice cities intentionally choose cheaper apartments at the expense of space because they expect they won't be home all the time. Suddenly being trapped in your small space could be like a prison sentence.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    And add to that the fact that pretty much all the urban things which were pretty much the justification for choosing a small city apartment weren't even available.
rglullis 4y ago
Speaking as someone living in Berlin: > Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. And I already have my friends outside of work to go do these things, or to go to the bar, or check out the restaurant. > we don't like talking to people. No, more likely it's just that I don´t want to hang out with you. Let me explain. Berlin might be a place of diversity, but it's not really heterogeneous. The majority of people that came here for "the tech scene" are hardly interested in integrating. It's been almost 10 years since I moved here and I'm yet to find a company where there is a strong push to get people to speak German or even be involved in any aspect of the local culture. Everyone will work together and will have no problem sharing the environment when needed, but very few people will actually feel like they want to hang out with their co-workers if they have other people in their circle. What happens at the end of the day is that most people just end up getting close to those who have some degree of affinity. British people will hang out with most British people. The same for Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, etc...
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  I haven't been to Berlin in about 20 years, but my observation is what you are describing could be any urban area in the US too... lots of career transplants who want to keep to themselves, don't really see themselves as locals, may only be there for a few years until they can make their next career move, etc. It's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
samuel_backend 4y ago
I agree with your comment 100% but the closing line is ridiculously beside the point. I also really don't get how anyone reads into my post that I want to force everyone to come back to the office all the time. My whole point was that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one missing certain things about working in a co-located manner and, you're absolutely right there, I forgot to factor in some very import background factors like the country you're working from.
- z9znz 4y ago
  The last line of my comment was "OP likely doesn't factor this in and comes to the naive conclusion that it must mean we don't like talking to people". Your post did say, "others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people". Not me, but others did take that to suggest that many of us were antisocial or incapable of social interaction. I don't take offense because I will easily admit to not being interested in talking to most people. Granted that doesn't mean I don't care about their wellbeing; it just means I don't want to spend my time on conversation which I think offers little to either party for the time and effort. I didn't comment on whether you want people to come back to the office or not. Some want it desperately, and some (like me) will pass up every job opportunity that has any measurable in-office requirement. Don't feel alone though -- you are not the only person wanting to come back into the office. About 1/3 of my colleges at my previous gig this year were asking for this. 1/3 of us were thinking, "wtf, hell no, we don't want to come in". And 1/3 were not publicly commenting :). In my experience during the COVID times, it did seem that the people most interested in returning to the office were younger. The older folks were openly joyous of being able to work from home.
  - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
    > Don't feel alone though -- you are not the only person wanting to come back into the office. About 1/3 of my colleges at my previous gig this year were asking for this. 1/3 of us were thinking, "wtf, hell no, we don't want to come in". And 1/3 were not publicly commenting :). Random aside, but it's fascinating to me that, when we ran a survey at our company, we had literally the exact same results. I'm kinda jealous of sociologists and economists, because there's some fascinating research papers that will come out of all of this.
irrational 4y ago
After work I want to go home to spend time with my family. Are these after work experiences things were they are going home and getting their family and then meeting up? Or is this one of those singles be non-singles kind of thing?
- z9znz 4y ago
  In my experience it's either a single thing, or both partners have similar situations and are each doing colleague things frequently. What absolutely does not work is when one of them is home pregnant and the other one is playing games with his buddies most nights at the gamedev shop they work for :). That is why I left a AAA game company. Had I been single, I would still be there. It was nerd paradise.
WorldMaker 4y ago
There's also the culture shift of even if it is convenient to do after work fun near the office, you can choose your friends, but you can't quite directly choose your coworkers. Not that it is wrong to have friends who are coworkers, but that you don't need your entire social life "defined" by your job. Socialization and social life are important to people, but "we need to return to offices for our social lives" rings hollow as a message precisely because some people here that as either the message "you must have a social life with your coworkers [for the good of the company]" or the desperate "I don't have a social life outside of work [please send help!]".

by z9znz 4y ago

lynndotpy 4y ago

This is my experience. I’m working from home, but the commute is 2.5h round trip, driving. That’s time, money, energy, and risk for tenuous benefits.

vladvasiliu 4y ago

You may be right, but as a personal anecdote, I totally agree with the sentiment you're responding to. I don't particularly enjoy working from the office and much prefer doing so from home, but I can tolerate it. I like my colleagues and shooting the breeze with them, but they're not my friends. But boy do I absolutely hate my commute, to the point that it shadows whatever positives there are when working from the office. I live and work in Paris (proper), a "big EU city with plenty of things to do". My commute is less than one hour each way by public transit (and I'm lucky enough that my line is rarely affected by random incidents or strikes). But boy do I hate it with a passion. It's time that is basically wasted. Yes, I read a bit, but it's much worse than if I took the time to read sitting in my sofa. I also get a bit of exercise, but again, it's much worse than if I went for a stroll at a more convenient time. It's a block of time that is fairly fixed during the day and which is tiring without getting much of anything in return.

ghaff 4y ago
In the US, I have about a five minute drive to the nearby train station and then I'm something over an hour by train and subway into the city depending upon where I'm going. Aside from not being able to actually walk to the train station, I'm not sure how you improve on that given the distance no matter what country you're in. And having done that commute about 3 days a week for over a year, it was pretty bad even though I wasn't driving.
- z9znz 4y ago
  Your public transport options are not common for most US dwellers. There are 10s of millions of people in the US who don't have access to any real public transport, especially trains.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Yes, I think it probably is uncommonly good for the US--all the hate the MBTA gets notwithstanding. But that's sort of my point. The city has relatively good public transit that is pretty much as convenient to me as is reasonable. And the commute still sucks. (I'm pretty far out but not unreasonably so.)
- petsfed 4y ago
  I think the way to improve that is to somehow lower the cost of housing, such that workers can afford to live close enough to the office to minimize the time cost of commuting. When I was commuting in the Bay Area, I'd walk half a mile to the local BART station (a walk I rather enjoyed), then I'd spend the next 90 minutes on a bus or train until I arrived at work. If I got to BART after 6am, I'd stand on the train for the first 60 minutes. Then I'd reverse the whole thing on the way home, although I typically got on the train early enough that I could sit the whole ride home. All of that, because that is what I could afford to do. The funny thing is, if I was paid at my hourly equivalent for all of that time spent commuting, I could afford to live closer to the office. I don't know that I like working from home per se, but I definitely hated that I spent 1-3 hours a day, every day, traveling, when I could be doing something I wanted to do. My ability to have hobbies, or spend meaningful time with my family, is basically blunted by the fact that I can't afford to house my family close to where I work. Its better now that I'm out of the Bay Area, but it's still a problem, and will be a problem, for the foreseeable future.

slothtrop 4y ago

I suspect commute/transport is the larger factor among the two you shared. The extracurricular usually comes down to eating and drinking. I'm sure particularly in the mid-west the options are more limited, but in a large enough city there's somewhere to go - it just might not be worth it. You'll still have to commute home in the end, and if you can't just walk to the fun destination from work then that's more time lost. This all raises an interesting point. I wonder if attitudes towards WFH can be predicated by zoning / city density. Even before COVID was a thing, Japan's reputation for instance is for the expectation of going out drinking with the boss after work.

z9znz 4y ago
> WFH can be predicated by zoning / city density I would add nature as an opposite factor to city density. A lot of magical places exist, but they don't usually have offices and jobs. Remote work enables one to experience them. Many years ago I had been remote working for a couple of years and then realized that I didn't have to continue living in Dallas with 100+ degree summers and air quality warnings several days each month. I moved to a ski resort area in the Colorado mountains. Even without the time flexibility that I had (which enabled me to snowski on weekdays when the slopes were empty... fresh powder all mine!), the summers were bliss with dozens of mountainbike trails of all degrees of difficulty. Needless to say my physical fitness became the best of my life, without effort (it was "play"!) That was probably my favorite place to live (and work) in the world, even counting beaches in Phuket, Thailand. The nature options were beyond what most people can imagine. The only reason I left was lack of available remote work when my job ended in 2011. So I moved to Amsterdam for a job and got to experience the oppsite but also awesome lifestyle. I would suggest remote workers take advantage of their freedom and spend some time in different places. My ski resort location was planned just as a month, but I stayed three years because it was so great. Such a thing just wouldn't have been possible had I been working in an office. One can always go back to a company with an office after exploring the alternatives.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  There are magical places, though they seem a tad less magical when they get overcrowded. I see owning a piece of 'magic' as a level of privilege that I don't think we can expect most middle-or-above class workers to indulge in without decimating away the magic, unless the population finally drops.

ghaff 4y ago

It really depends where you live both in Europe and the US. Many people in Europe have long commutes (and even public transportation can be time-consuming). At least some number of people in the US whose companies have city offices choose to live in the city and walk/cycle/take public transit but many do not. If I were to commute to our city office it's something like 3 hours round trip daily. Even being able to go 95% of the way by train, that's exhausting. (I did it for 18 months half-time with another company. It was not sustainable.) However, I could also--if I chose--live within walking distance and certainly easy public transit distance of our office. I choose not to do so because I like my semi-rural house. But if I did live a short walk away from our office I would go in semi-regularly. And can certainly understand someone who lives and works in a city wanting to go into an office--especially given they probably live in a relatively small apartment. >than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities. Dallas yes. Denver has a pretty nice downtown. Boston, Manhattan, even San Francisco. It's a matter of where the office is and where you choose to live.

z9znz 4y ago
> especially given they probably live in a relatively small apartment. Yeah, I can very much sympathize with people... some of my ex-colleagues in fact... who lived in small apartments (and even shared apartments with others) during the COVID forced work from home times. Oh and people with kids, especially small ones... A lot of people in nice cities intentionally choose cheaper apartments at the expense of space because they expect they won't be home all the time. Suddenly being trapped in your small space could be like a prison sentence.
- ghaff 4y ago
  And add to that the fact that pretty much all the urban things which were pretty much the justification for choosing a small city apartment weren't even available.

rglullis 4y ago

Speaking as someone living in Berlin: > Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. And I already have my friends outside of work to go do these things, or to go to the bar, or check out the restaurant. > we don't like talking to people. No, more likely it's just that I don´t want to hang out with you. Let me explain. Berlin might be a place of diversity, but it's not really heterogeneous. The majority of people that came here for "the tech scene" are hardly interested in integrating. It's been almost 10 years since I moved here and I'm yet to find a company where there is a strong push to get people to speak German or even be involved in any aspect of the local culture. Everyone will work together and will have no problem sharing the environment when needed, but very few people will actually feel like they want to hang out with their co-workers if they have other people in their circle. What happens at the end of the day is that most people just end up getting close to those who have some degree of affinity. British people will hang out with most British people. The same for Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, etc...

poulsbohemian 4y ago
I haven't been to Berlin in about 20 years, but my observation is what you are describing could be any urban area in the US too... lots of career transplants who want to keep to themselves, don't really see themselves as locals, may only be there for a few years until they can make their next career move, etc. It's an interesting phenomenon to observe.

samuel_backend 4y ago

I agree with your comment 100% but the closing line is ridiculously beside the point. I also really don't get how anyone reads into my post that I want to force everyone to come back to the office all the time. My whole point was that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one missing certain things about working in a co-located manner and, you're absolutely right there, I forgot to factor in some very import background factors like the country you're working from.

z9znz 4y ago
The last line of my comment was "OP likely doesn't factor this in and comes to the naive conclusion that it must mean we don't like talking to people". Your post did say, "others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people". Not me, but others did take that to suggest that many of us were antisocial or incapable of social interaction. I don't take offense because I will easily admit to not being interested in talking to most people. Granted that doesn't mean I don't care about their wellbeing; it just means I don't want to spend my time on conversation which I think offers little to either party for the time and effort. I didn't comment on whether you want people to come back to the office or not. Some want it desperately, and some (like me) will pass up every job opportunity that has any measurable in-office requirement. Don't feel alone though -- you are not the only person wanting to come back into the office. About 1/3 of my colleges at my previous gig this year were asking for this. 1/3 of us were thinking, "wtf, hell no, we don't want to come in". And 1/3 were not publicly commenting :). In my experience during the COVID times, it did seem that the people most interested in returning to the office were younger. The older folks were openly joyous of being able to work from home.
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  > Don't feel alone though -- you are not the only person wanting to come back into the office. About 1/3 of my colleges at my previous gig this year were asking for this. 1/3 of us were thinking, "wtf, hell no, we don't want to come in". And 1/3 were not publicly commenting :). Random aside, but it's fascinating to me that, when we ran a survey at our company, we had literally the exact same results. I'm kinda jealous of sociologists and economists, because there's some fascinating research papers that will come out of all of this.

irrational 4y ago

After work I want to go home to spend time with my family. Are these after work experiences things were they are going home and getting their family and then meeting up? Or is this one of those singles be non-singles kind of thing?

z9znz 4y ago
In my experience it's either a single thing, or both partners have similar situations and are each doing colleague things frequently. What absolutely does not work is when one of them is home pregnant and the other one is playing games with his buddies most nights at the gamedev shop they work for :). That is why I left a AAA game company. Had I been single, I would still be there. It was nerd paradise.

WorldMaker 4y ago

There's also the culture shift of even if it is convenient to do after work fun near the office, you can choose your friends, but you can't quite directly choose your coworkers. Not that it is wrong to have friends who are coworkers, but that you don't need your entire social life "defined" by your job. Socialization and social life are important to people, but "we need to return to offices for our social lives" rings hollow as a message precisely because some people here that as either the message "you must have a social life with your coworkers [for the good of the company]" or the desperate "I don't have a social life outside of work [please send help!]".