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I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of soci

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, who might not like to commute, or who prefer to socialize in other settings, "do not care to invest themselves"? Maybe it's not the OP's opinions that are controversial, but rather the implicit judgment that comes along with it.

Dawnyhf5 4y ago
vaidhy 4y ago
I think you are reading three different reasons and you are mentally adding “do not care to invest” to all three. That is not what the OP said.
- hluska 4y ago
  Here’s a direct quote: Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. (I added the italics for emphasis.)
  - SpikyBlackHard 4y ago
    I am such a person. He is not wrong. If it's not applicable to you then don't take it personally.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    The phrase makes it clear that these are different people than the ones who can't stand the commute etc. And yes, there are people who work only to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. What exactly is wrong with that, or why do you think the OP implies there is something wrong with that?
    - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
      > And yes, there are people who work only to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And what does that have to do with preferring to work from home? It's almost comical the implication that those same people, pre-COVID, weren't going to the office and phoning it in. IMO the two topics--being... I dunno... not ambitious, and working from home--are entirely orthogonal concepts. And the implication that people who advocate for wfh options are more likely to "not care to invest themselves" is, charitably, misguided. If anything, wfh makes it possible for more people to achieve their professional goals since the labour market has opened up significantly for folks in other geographies, or who might have restrictions in their personal life (e.g. being a caregiver, having disability, etc) that make commuting a significant barrier. > What exactly is wrong with that, or why do you think the OP implies there is something wrong with that? Because the OP goes on to say: I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. Mostly, because it takes so much grit and persistence to get good at it that most people wouldn't succeed unless they see something in it beyond putting food on the table. It's clear they view "grit" and "persistence" as virtues, and "not [caring] to invest themselves beyond what is necessary" as a vice. Frankly, this smells pretty strongly of hustle culture, and I've had more than enough of that.
      - samuel_backend 4y ago
        I work a 4 day work week and am complaining about this BECAUSE I care about the fun and meaning these 32 hours / week have, not because I want to work more or define myself through work achievements. And again, I wouldn't want to force anyone to come to the office. I am merely asking for other people's opinions.
        BaseballPhysics 4y ago
        Hey, the OP! Great, I can just straight up ask you: given that, would you agree with the statement that preferring a WFH arrangement and being ambitious/"invested"/whatever are largely orthogonal to one another? I ask because, right here, you're tying "[caring] about the fun and meaning [of your work hours]" to working in an office. And I honestly just don't see the connection. Can you say more about that?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 4y ago
    Aren't you just emphasizing one of the three scenarios? It doesn't seem to contradict the statement you are responding to.
jwcacces 4y ago
To give an alternative opinion, as someone who has come to see a commute as a complete waste of my time, and also as someone who has spent a long time contemplating the nature of my relationship to work in general, I did not feel condescended by the that post. I saw each those descriptors separately, able to appeal to those they resonated with. And honestly, the characterization of "working to get paid and not investing beyond what is necessary" is not a deprecation of me, my attitude, or the balance I've struck. I can understand if that specific sentiment does not resonate with you, but for me, I've come to feel accepting and happy with the ideas that: my work is purely in exchange for money, it is not my identity, and that once I've put my part in, I want to use my time and energy towards the other things that make me happy. I'm not saying I don't get great joy and satisfaction out of my hard work and coworker relationships, I really do. For me, that comes with: "This is my task, and when I've satisfied it, that's all I'm interested in doing". However what really brought peace to my mind was incorporating: "And that's OK." into my outlook. "I do not care to invest myself beyond that" is not a characterization I feel the need to be ashamed of. Perhaps it's hubris on my part, but I'm proud of the push back that I feel entitled to give, and I'm proud to say "this is the limit of my investment in work".
UnpossibleJim 4y ago
Not to hop on the train of criticism, but there are plenty of other ways to invest yourself in your career other than being a social butterfly around the coffee pot. Admittedly I'm a bit socially awkward and fully aware of my flaws, but that's part of the reason I enjoy terminal work in the first place. Commits and Slack are about as social as I was in the office, anyway and when I was social, people wished I would keep it to commits and Slack =P
- mufty 4y ago
  The most relatable comment I’ve read so far
- hirvi74 4y ago
  Maybe I have some sort of Office-PTSD or something, but I make it very clear to my coworkers that we can be friendly, but we aren't friends. You don't need my cellphone number, we don't need to go grab drinks after work, etc.. I've just noticed that if you turn your back for a second, then out come the wolves. Less coffee pot talk the better as far as I am concerned. I have my friends and life outside of work, and I like to keep them separate. As the saying goes, "you don't shit where you eat."
  - TheGigaChad 4y ago
  - AlwaysRock 4y ago
    Yup. So much this. I'm friendly with folks at work. I'm not friends with people at work. Maybe some people truly are but I suspect most people who think their coworkers are friends are pretending like that friendship wont go away rapidly when one of them no longer works for the company. So much of OPs post is trying to get from coworkers what many get from friends.
    - boredtofears 4y ago
      Some of the best friends and mentors I've made in life have been through my career. I still talk to friends from jobs that I left over a decade ago. That's bizarre to me to have an explicit attitude of not befriending colleagues. It's never been something I've specifically sought out, it's always organically come to be -- but it's not something I would actively work against. I don't understand the benefit to that mindset.
CoastalCoder 4y ago
I don't think it's fair to chastise the author about this. His entire question was basically, "Am I looking at this situation differently than most people?". We couldn't really answer his question without knowing his true feelings.
- samuel_backend 4y ago
  Thanks! And for what it's worth, I don't feel chastised that much. From personal experience of talking to a lot of friends about this, I knew where this was headed :D
bearmode 4y ago
I worked out that for me, even accounting for energy bills and such, working from home full time would be equivalent to a 15% pay rise. And on top of that, I'd have 2 hours of extra free time every day. I can't understand the kind of person who wouldn't want that.
- throw827474737 4y ago
  Totally.. and if you really miss the socializing in the office because of being young and alone, or fresh in a city (only reason why I could understand that): find a nice coworking space nearby and you can have most of the things the author seems to miss?
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Socializing with your colleagues has nothing to do with socializing with random people who happen to work in the same space. Work is part of many people's identity, they take pride in their work and enjoy discussing and improving it. It is also not part of many other people's identities. Both are perfectly valid approaches to life.
- distances 4y ago
  Is that just from commuting? For me the cost is 50-100€ per month depending on the cost of the public transport ticket, and that I can deduct from taxes anyway. Plus a couple of extra lunches I would buy with WFO. So basically negligible.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    Do you value your time at $0?
    - distances 4y ago
      The parent wrote "on top of that, [..] 2 hours of extra free time". So they didn't include time valuation to the 15%.
throw827474737 4y ago
Yeah, that also struck bad here.. > work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary Dude, I am heavily invested into my work, but that doesn't mean I need to care for your social deficits - it can, but these should be mostly orthogonal things. Social investment is what I realized I really need to decrease at work, lol I still do it too much even virtually ( what is possible ). Too long I have stuck to bad jobs because of colleagues and bonding.. much better to get this into a more "professional relationship", because you know, while your employer tries to meme the "friendly colleague" he never actually gives a shit.. so turns out better for me to make real friendships outside of work ( yeah, even with colleagues) and use my commute time for other social things - but stop "soft-socializing" with colleagues in office for nothing in the end !)
- jalk 4y ago
  I read "not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary" as in meaning invest themselves into the job - not a general statement about the person. I have friends who are like that - they work their expected hours, but don't do anything extra - they don't expect to get raises nor promotions and they are perfectly fine with that. They put their energy into other things (which they can't live off), but they are by no means miserable, lazy or mismanaging their lives
  - scrumbledober 4y ago
    but where is the connection between investing yourself into your job and going in to the office? That assumes that you can't work hard from home, which I don't believe to be true.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > That assumes that you can't work hard from home, which I don't believe to be true. Where's the analysis of the job to see if it can really be performed ideally remotely. Also, "hard" is a straw man. As a boss I want output not effort and part of being near coworkers is to avoid getting stuck and wasting resources. > where is the connection between investing yourself into your job and going in to the office If I was your coworker or boss and I showed you that connection for the job in question would you admit it and come in?
z9znz 4y ago
> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after work often involves a much greater time cost, thereby reducing the likelihood that someone will partake of the opportunity. So office work is more likely just office work with no after-work fun. Just like most people in the US have no clue what life is like in the big EU cities, most Europeans have no idea how different US life is. I've lived both, and I can say without question that it's easier to have a fun office+after-office experience in a city like Amsterdam or Berlin (or London probably) than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities. OP likely doesn't factor this in and comes to the naive conclusion that it must mean we don't like talking to people.
- lynndotpy 4y ago
  This is my experience. I’m working from home, but the commute is 2.5h round trip, driving. That’s time, money, energy, and risk for tenuous benefits.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  You may be right, but as a personal anecdote, I totally agree with the sentiment you're responding to. I don't particularly enjoy working from the office and much prefer doing so from home, but I can tolerate it. I like my colleagues and shooting the breeze with them, but they're not my friends. But boy do I absolutely hate my commute, to the point that it shadows whatever positives there are when working from the office. I live and work in Paris (proper), a "big EU city with plenty of things to do". My commute is less than one hour each way by public transit (and I'm lucky enough that my line is rarely affected by random incidents or strikes). But boy do I hate it with a passion. It's time that is basically wasted. Yes, I read a bit, but it's much worse than if I took the time to read sitting in my sofa. I also get a bit of exercise, but again, it's much worse than if I went for a stroll at a more convenient time. It's a block of time that is fairly fixed during the day and which is tiring without getting much of anything in return.
bombcar 4y ago
There are also different kinds of jobs at different companies. Some jobs are basically "wait around until something explodes, and then all hands on deck" - the IT equivalent of firemen, for example. Those jobs certainly have a fun "club" aspect when hanging around the firehouse waiting for disaster to strike; and that aspect is gone when everyone's working from home doing whatever.
- stripline 4y ago
  This is an excellent analogy. I've been struggling to understand why I feel like I'm one of the minority that (like OP) isn't really in love with WFH. You just described my motivation in one simple sentence.
watwut 4y ago
> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And then are people who are fully invested, but also aware that a lot of time in office is spend on ... other people trying to get socialization. Cause they don't build relationships outside of work, but still need to talk to people, so they drag meetings and discussions forever. And that is not being invested more, but it is awful common. WFH greatly minimizes that. In return you get spend more time with actual friends/family.
- subradios 4y ago
  The unfortunate fact is that at least in the US, even if you live in a "walkable", "transit oriented" city, there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community. How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? I get that your opinion of this is that it's degenerate, and this may be true - but have some sympathy for folks whose regular, non covid experience even when they can walk to all the urban amenities is "I can't make friends because I would have to break into a group, which means an activity that isn't focused on transactional gain, which isn't allowed in the city due to a combination of taxes, rental prices, and most of the city preferring to drink alone and out voting me"
  - criddell 4y ago
    > How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? What have you tried so far?
  - coffeedan 4y ago
    > How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? Do the things you enjoy: run, bike, ski, live music, drinking, church - whatever floats your boat. Other people do them too. Meet them. Be friends.
  - watwut 4y ago
    > there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community. Actual community does not requires a business. Building relationships does not require business either. I did not said it is degenerate. But it is dishonest when what I described is framed as somehow being more performing, because of spending more time in workplace slowing down effectivity of it. Also, It is possible to create relationships in workplace and then keep those as you move to other workplaces - assuming people are willing to socialize outside of workplace. It is possible for communities to form around blocks, parks or hobbies.
tmpz22 4y ago
Further we're seeing the lowest rate ever of unemployment among the disabled [1] (42.5M Americans). I guess OP views them as > people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-03/disabled-us-workers-see-highest-ever-employment-figures-from-remote-work?sref=UTbvKgk5 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-03/disabled-...
- criddell 4y ago
  That's a pretty uncharitable take.
mcrad 4y ago
Implicit judgment? Remarkably condescending? It's a statement of fact that many WFH advocates are paycheck-grabbers who want to extend the least effort for the most pay. Maybe the worst part about WFH is the increased tendency to cherry pick a line of text and derail the main topic. All because feelings of being judged personally, possibly by a sub-optimal word choice of the sender. It's almost like we are being forced to debate semantics instead of substance with attitudes like that.
y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. This was a stand-alone comment, separated from the comment about those that don't like to commute or socialize. I don't think they were implying that one means the other. That's how I read it anyway. BTW as someone that works to get paid and does not care about investing myself beyond what is necessary, I wasn't offended by that remark and I don't think OP meant it in an offensive way. To me it comes off as accepting it as a valid reason for not wanting to come in.
yupper32 4y ago
> prefer to socialize in other settings Can someone shed some light on this? I'm in the office for at least 40 hours a week. Then each day I get home, cook dinner, clean, bathe, workout sometimes. I don't even have kids or a long commute. If I'm not socializing at work, when am I doing it? Two days a week? That is bleeeeaak.
- hhmc 4y ago
  40hours a week is 8 hours a day. Let's say you sleep 8 hours. Let's also be conservative and say you have a 1 hour commute each way. That's still 6 hours left. It's pretty easy to find some socialization time in there unless you're taking 4 hour long showers. This isn't just theoretical, _clearly_ many people socialize in the evenings.
  - yupper32 4y ago
    By the time I work out, get home, cook dinner, eat dinner, clean, shower, it's like 8pm usually. No one around me is staying out past like 10pm on a weekday. Now I have the job of finding anyone who wants to hang out from 8pm to 10pm on a weekday when both/all of us are exhausted from a long day. Doing the hard math and saying I have 6 hours is just theoretical. _Many_ people may socialize in the evenings, but I'd be surprised _most_ do.
    - hhmc 4y ago
      If you meet someone for dinner you don't need to cook/eat/clean. Perhaps you could choose not to workout every evening. It might not come for free, but you can make it happen if you actually want it to happen.
    - doix 4y ago
      I had a similar realization at a certain point. I was wasting too much time on chores, so I optimized them out of my life. Replace all food at home with Huel. No more cooking, no more cleaning, no more shopping (no more driving to stores), no more wondering if you can go out for dinner or if food will spoil. Make sure all your clothes can be washed together (either all tones of grey, or all colours). Make sure all your socks are the same. Do washing once a week on a weekend. Move closer to your office to eliminate commute. You don't cook anymore, so can get a place without a good kitchen for cheap. Suddenly you have infinite time. For what it's worth, I would socialize with people from work (and ex-coworkers) after work. 5pm, off to the pub or a restaurant. Then walk home since I'd live near the office which would be near the pub/restaurant (since we are going after work).
x0x0 4y ago
Some people really view their coworkers as an opportunity for forced socialization / to make up for their lack of social life. True story: a new employee moved to sf. In my office, we had a standing weekly drinks night at the local. Everyone was invited (NB: and not required to drink in any way.) I mentioned it to this person. He/she doesn't drink. Cool, do yourself. And then, dude wanted us to switch to boba. Nope, ain't happening. And actually had a tantrum w/ managers involved over us not wanting to cater to his hangups about alcohol. I even mentioned it on here and had HN commenters pissy that I -- a grown ass adult -- didn't feel responsible for rearranging my limited outside-of-work social time to suit someone else just because he happened to work with me.
neilv 4y ago
If a US person made those "Now, I am fully aware" comments you quoted, I think one likely interpretation is that they are generalizing from anecdotes from personal experience (possibly including conflating distinct properties), and resent that. Another possibility is that, although the English is excellent, there are probably implicit cultural values and ideas that are unfamiliar to me. (Incidentally, though I don't think it's the case here, I've also sometimes seen tone like that slip in when someone is astroturfing, or writing a persuasive piece around misrepresenting their real position, but is not good at it. It's a bit like Fellow Kids.)
nicholasjarnold 4y ago
Agree. It speaks to some bias the OP has towards WFH-preferring people. I live in a major metro area close to the city center. I worked in a hybrid WFH environment prior to March of 2020 when COVID-19 started freaking people here out. I've now been fully remote 100% for a number of years, and I work with a firm based in another distant US state (with no local office). Do I miss friendly banter with some previous coworkers whom I liked on a personal level? Yes. Do I miss it enough to want to go back to an arrangement where I was expected to be in-office 2-3 days a week. Absolutely not. For me the benefits in productivity and convenience while working from home outweigh the camaraderie or team lunches or whatever. I still lunch with some of my former coworkers semi-regularly. We pick a place fairly central and those who can show up do. Does this mean that I'm a socially inept miscreant? I think not. It just means that I prefer working in an environment that is maximally comfortable and of my own choosing. To drive my point home allow me to make a statement: I will never again accept any position that requires me in the office full-time or really any more than a single day per week at most. I just do not have to. I don't tend to target working for <impressive-brand-name-company>, so I have plenty of choices to work with lesser-known companies whom are (very) happy to find someone competent to help them build out their tech stacks. I've found that those lesser-known companies are much less likely to push hardball WFO tactics. If they do...then I simply start answering my unsolicited emails. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good luck to you, OP. I hope you find happiness out there.
beauzero 4y ago
I don't understand why people don't want to do WFH to reduce carbon emissions. It seems like the quickest way an individual can reduce their emissions.

Dawnyhf5 4y ago

vaidhy 4y ago

I think you are reading three different reasons and you are mentally adding “do not care to invest” to all three. That is not what the OP said.

hluska 4y ago
Here’s a direct quote: Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. (I added the italics for emphasis.)
- SpikyBlackHard 4y ago
  I am such a person. He is not wrong. If it's not applicable to you then don't take it personally.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  The phrase makes it clear that these are different people than the ones who can't stand the commute etc. And yes, there are people who work only to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. What exactly is wrong with that, or why do you think the OP implies there is something wrong with that?
  - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
    > And yes, there are people who work only to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And what does that have to do with preferring to work from home? It's almost comical the implication that those same people, pre-COVID, weren't going to the office and phoning it in. IMO the two topics--being... I dunno... not ambitious, and working from home--are entirely orthogonal concepts. And the implication that people who advocate for wfh options are more likely to "not care to invest themselves" is, charitably, misguided. If anything, wfh makes it possible for more people to achieve their professional goals since the labour market has opened up significantly for folks in other geographies, or who might have restrictions in their personal life (e.g. being a caregiver, having disability, etc) that make commuting a significant barrier. > What exactly is wrong with that, or why do you think the OP implies there is something wrong with that? Because the OP goes on to say: I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. Mostly, because it takes so much grit and persistence to get good at it that most people wouldn't succeed unless they see something in it beyond putting food on the table. It's clear they view "grit" and "persistence" as virtues, and "not [caring] to invest themselves beyond what is necessary" as a vice. Frankly, this smells pretty strongly of hustle culture, and I've had more than enough of that.
    - samuel_backend 4y ago
      I work a 4 day work week and am complaining about this BECAUSE I care about the fun and meaning these 32 hours / week have, not because I want to work more or define myself through work achievements. And again, I wouldn't want to force anyone to come to the office. I am merely asking for other people's opinions.
      - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
        Hey, the OP! Great, I can just straight up ask you: given that, would you agree with the statement that preferring a WFH arrangement and being ambitious/"invested"/whatever are largely orthogonal to one another? I ask because, right here, you're tying "[caring] about the fun and meaning [of your work hours]" to working in an office. And I honestly just don't see the connection. Can you say more about that?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ska 4y ago
  Aren't you just emphasizing one of the three scenarios? It doesn't seem to contradict the statement you are responding to.

jwcacces 4y ago

To give an alternative opinion, as someone who has come to see a commute as a complete waste of my time, and also as someone who has spent a long time contemplating the nature of my relationship to work in general, I did not feel condescended by the that post. I saw each those descriptors separately, able to appeal to those they resonated with. And honestly, the characterization of "working to get paid and not investing beyond what is necessary" is not a deprecation of me, my attitude, or the balance I've struck. I can understand if that specific sentiment does not resonate with you, but for me, I've come to feel accepting and happy with the ideas that: my work is purely in exchange for money, it is not my identity, and that once I've put my part in, I want to use my time and energy towards the other things that make me happy. I'm not saying I don't get great joy and satisfaction out of my hard work and coworker relationships, I really do. For me, that comes with: "This is my task, and when I've satisfied it, that's all I'm interested in doing". However what really brought peace to my mind was incorporating: "And that's OK." into my outlook. "I do not care to invest myself beyond that" is not a characterization I feel the need to be ashamed of. Perhaps it's hubris on my part, but I'm proud of the push back that I feel entitled to give, and I'm proud to say "this is the limit of my investment in work".

UnpossibleJim 4y ago

Not to hop on the train of criticism, but there are plenty of other ways to invest yourself in your career other than being a social butterfly around the coffee pot. Admittedly I'm a bit socially awkward and fully aware of my flaws, but that's part of the reason I enjoy terminal work in the first place. Commits and Slack are about as social as I was in the office, anyway and when I was social, people wished I would keep it to commits and Slack =P

mufty 4y ago
The most relatable comment I’ve read so far
hirvi74 4y ago
Maybe I have some sort of Office-PTSD or something, but I make it very clear to my coworkers that we can be friendly, but we aren't friends. You don't need my cellphone number, we don't need to go grab drinks after work, etc.. I've just noticed that if you turn your back for a second, then out come the wolves. Less coffee pot talk the better as far as I am concerned. I have my friends and life outside of work, and I like to keep them separate. As the saying goes, "you don't shit where you eat."
- TheGigaChad 4y ago
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  Yup. So much this. I'm friendly with folks at work. I'm not friends with people at work. Maybe some people truly are but I suspect most people who think their coworkers are friends are pretending like that friendship wont go away rapidly when one of them no longer works for the company. So much of OPs post is trying to get from coworkers what many get from friends.
  - boredtofears 4y ago
    Some of the best friends and mentors I've made in life have been through my career. I still talk to friends from jobs that I left over a decade ago. That's bizarre to me to have an explicit attitude of not befriending colleagues. It's never been something I've specifically sought out, it's always organically come to be -- but it's not something I would actively work against. I don't understand the benefit to that mindset.

CoastalCoder 4y ago

I don't think it's fair to chastise the author about this. His entire question was basically, "Am I looking at this situation differently than most people?". We couldn't really answer his question without knowing his true feelings.

samuel_backend 4y ago
Thanks! And for what it's worth, I don't feel chastised that much. From personal experience of talking to a lot of friends about this, I knew where this was headed :D

bearmode 4y ago

I worked out that for me, even accounting for energy bills and such, working from home full time would be equivalent to a 15% pay rise. And on top of that, I'd have 2 hours of extra free time every day. I can't understand the kind of person who wouldn't want that.

throw827474737 4y ago
Totally.. and if you really miss the socializing in the office because of being young and alone, or fresh in a city (only reason why I could understand that): find a nice coworking space nearby and you can have most of the things the author seems to miss?
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  Socializing with your colleagues has nothing to do with socializing with random people who happen to work in the same space. Work is part of many people's identity, they take pride in their work and enjoy discussing and improving it. It is also not part of many other people's identities. Both are perfectly valid approaches to life.
distances 4y ago
Is that just from commuting? For me the cost is 50-100€ per month depending on the cost of the public transport ticket, and that I can deduct from taxes anyway. Plus a couple of extra lunches I would buy with WFO. So basically negligible.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  Do you value your time at $0?
  - distances 4y ago
    The parent wrote "on top of that, [..] 2 hours of extra free time". So they didn't include time valuation to the 15%.

throw827474737 4y ago

Yeah, that also struck bad here.. > work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary Dude, I am heavily invested into my work, but that doesn't mean I need to care for your social deficits - it can, but these should be mostly orthogonal things. Social investment is what I realized I really need to decrease at work, lol I still do it too much even virtually ( what is possible ). Too long I have stuck to bad jobs because of colleagues and bonding.. much better to get this into a more "professional relationship", because you know, while your employer tries to meme the "friendly colleague" he never actually gives a shit.. so turns out better for me to make real friendships outside of work ( yeah, even with colleagues) and use my commute time for other social things - but stop "soft-socializing" with colleagues in office for nothing in the end !)

jalk 4y ago
I read "not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary" as in meaning invest themselves into the job - not a general statement about the person. I have friends who are like that - they work their expected hours, but don't do anything extra - they don't expect to get raises nor promotions and they are perfectly fine with that. They put their energy into other things (which they can't live off), but they are by no means miserable, lazy or mismanaging their lives
- scrumbledober 4y ago
  but where is the connection between investing yourself into your job and going in to the office? That assumes that you can't work hard from home, which I don't believe to be true.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > That assumes that you can't work hard from home, which I don't believe to be true. Where's the analysis of the job to see if it can really be performed ideally remotely. Also, "hard" is a straw man. As a boss I want output not effort and part of being near coworkers is to avoid getting stuck and wasting resources. > where is the connection between investing yourself into your job and going in to the office If I was your coworker or boss and I showed you that connection for the job in question would you admit it and come in?

z9znz 4y ago

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after work often involves a much greater time cost, thereby reducing the likelihood that someone will partake of the opportunity. So office work is more likely just office work with no after-work fun. Just like most people in the US have no clue what life is like in the big EU cities, most Europeans have no idea how different US life is. I've lived both, and I can say without question that it's easier to have a fun office+after-office experience in a city like Amsterdam or Berlin (or London probably) than Denver, Dallas, or most other big US cities. OP likely doesn't factor this in and comes to the naive conclusion that it must mean we don't like talking to people.

lynndotpy 4y ago
This is my experience. I’m working from home, but the commute is 2.5h round trip, driving. That’s time, money, energy, and risk for tenuous benefits.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
You may be right, but as a personal anecdote, I totally agree with the sentiment you're responding to. I don't particularly enjoy working from the office and much prefer doing so from home, but I can tolerate it. I like my colleagues and shooting the breeze with them, but they're not my friends. But boy do I absolutely hate my commute, to the point that it shadows whatever positives there are when working from the office. I live and work in Paris (proper), a "big EU city with plenty of things to do". My commute is less than one hour each way by public transit (and I'm lucky enough that my line is rarely affected by random incidents or strikes). But boy do I hate it with a passion. It's time that is basically wasted. Yes, I read a bit, but it's much worse than if I took the time to read sitting in my sofa. I also get a bit of exercise, but again, it's much worse than if I went for a stroll at a more convenient time. It's a block of time that is fairly fixed during the day and which is tiring without getting much of anything in return.

bombcar 4y ago

There are also different kinds of jobs at different companies. Some jobs are basically "wait around until something explodes, and then all hands on deck" - the IT equivalent of firemen, for example. Those jobs certainly have a fun "club" aspect when hanging around the firehouse waiting for disaster to strike; and that aspect is gone when everyone's working from home doing whatever.

stripline 4y ago
This is an excellent analogy. I've been struggling to understand why I feel like I'm one of the minority that (like OP) isn't really in love with WFH. You just described my motivation in one simple sentence.

watwut 4y ago

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. And then are people who are fully invested, but also aware that a lot of time in office is spend on ... other people trying to get socialization. Cause they don't build relationships outside of work, but still need to talk to people, so they drag meetings and discussions forever. And that is not being invested more, but it is awful common. WFH greatly minimizes that. In return you get spend more time with actual friends/family.

subradios 4y ago
The unfortunate fact is that at least in the US, even if you live in a "walkable", "transit oriented" city, there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community. How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? I get that your opinion of this is that it's degenerate, and this may be true - but have some sympathy for folks whose regular, non covid experience even when they can walk to all the urban amenities is "I can't make friends because I would have to break into a group, which means an activity that isn't focused on transactional gain, which isn't allowed in the city due to a combination of taxes, rental prices, and most of the city preferring to drink alone and out voting me"
- criddell 4y ago
  > How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? What have you tried so far?
- coffeedan 4y ago
  > How are you supposed to "build relationships outside of work" in that environment? Do the things you enjoy: run, bike, ski, live music, drinking, church - whatever floats your boat. Other people do them too. Meet them. Be friends.
- watwut 4y ago
  > there is no way to run a business that's community oriented. Which means that the only actual community available is your work community. Actual community does not requires a business. Building relationships does not require business either. I did not said it is degenerate. But it is dishonest when what I described is framed as somehow being more performing, because of spending more time in workplace slowing down effectivity of it. Also, It is possible to create relationships in workplace and then keep those as you move to other workplaces - assuming people are willing to socialize outside of workplace. It is possible for communities to form around blocks, parks or hobbies.

tmpz22 4y ago

Further we're seeing the lowest rate ever of unemployment among the disabled [1] (42.5M Americans). I guess OP views them as > people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-03/disabled-us-workers-see-highest-ever-employment-figures-from-remote-work?sref=UTbvKgk5 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-03/disabled-...

criddell 4y ago
That's a pretty uncharitable take.

mcrad 4y ago

Implicit judgment? Remarkably condescending? It's a statement of fact that many WFH advocates are paycheck-grabbers who want to extend the least effort for the most pay. Maybe the worst part about WFH is the increased tendency to cherry pick a line of text and derail the main topic. All because feelings of being judged personally, possibly by a sub-optimal word choice of the sender. It's almost like we are being forced to debate semantics instead of substance with attitudes like that.

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. This was a stand-alone comment, separated from the comment about those that don't like to commute or socialize. I don't think they were implying that one means the other. That's how I read it anyway. BTW as someone that works to get paid and does not care about investing myself beyond what is necessary, I wasn't offended by that remark and I don't think OP meant it in an offensive way. To me it comes off as accepting it as a valid reason for not wanting to come in.

yupper32 4y ago

> prefer to socialize in other settings Can someone shed some light on this? I'm in the office for at least 40 hours a week. Then each day I get home, cook dinner, clean, bathe, workout sometimes. I don't even have kids or a long commute. If I'm not socializing at work, when am I doing it? Two days a week? That is bleeeeaak.

hhmc 4y ago
40hours a week is 8 hours a day. Let's say you sleep 8 hours. Let's also be conservative and say you have a 1 hour commute each way. That's still 6 hours left. It's pretty easy to find some socialization time in there unless you're taking 4 hour long showers. This isn't just theoretical, _clearly_ many people socialize in the evenings.
- yupper32 4y ago
  By the time I work out, get home, cook dinner, eat dinner, clean, shower, it's like 8pm usually. No one around me is staying out past like 10pm on a weekday. Now I have the job of finding anyone who wants to hang out from 8pm to 10pm on a weekday when both/all of us are exhausted from a long day. Doing the hard math and saying I have 6 hours is just theoretical. _Many_ people may socialize in the evenings, but I'd be surprised _most_ do.
  - hhmc 4y ago
    If you meet someone for dinner you don't need to cook/eat/clean. Perhaps you could choose not to workout every evening. It might not come for free, but you can make it happen if you actually want it to happen.
  - doix 4y ago
    I had a similar realization at a certain point. I was wasting too much time on chores, so I optimized them out of my life. Replace all food at home with Huel. No more cooking, no more cleaning, no more shopping (no more driving to stores), no more wondering if you can go out for dinner or if food will spoil. Make sure all your clothes can be washed together (either all tones of grey, or all colours). Make sure all your socks are the same. Do washing once a week on a weekend. Move closer to your office to eliminate commute. You don't cook anymore, so can get a place without a good kitchen for cheap. Suddenly you have infinite time. For what it's worth, I would socialize with people from work (and ex-coworkers) after work. 5pm, off to the pub or a restaurant. Then walk home since I'd live near the office which would be near the pub/restaurant (since we are going after work).

x0x0 4y ago

Some people really view their coworkers as an opportunity for forced socialization / to make up for their lack of social life. True story: a new employee moved to sf. In my office, we had a standing weekly drinks night at the local. Everyone was invited (NB: and not required to drink in any way.) I mentioned it to this person. He/she doesn't drink. Cool, do yourself. And then, dude wanted us to switch to boba. Nope, ain't happening. And actually had a tantrum w/ managers involved over us not wanting to cater to his hangups about alcohol. I even mentioned it on here and had HN commenters pissy that I -- a grown ass adult -- didn't feel responsible for rearranging my limited outside-of-work social time to suit someone else just because he happened to work with me.

neilv 4y ago

If a US person made those "Now, I am fully aware" comments you quoted, I think one likely interpretation is that they are generalizing from anecdotes from personal experience (possibly including conflating distinct properties), and resent that. Another possibility is that, although the English is excellent, there are probably implicit cultural values and ideas that are unfamiliar to me. (Incidentally, though I don't think it's the case here, I've also sometimes seen tone like that slip in when someone is astroturfing, or writing a persuasive piece around misrepresenting their real position, but is not good at it. It's a bit like Fellow Kids.)

nicholasjarnold 4y ago

Agree. It speaks to some bias the OP has towards WFH-preferring people. I live in a major metro area close to the city center. I worked in a hybrid WFH environment prior to March of 2020 when COVID-19 started freaking people here out. I've now been fully remote 100% for a number of years, and I work with a firm based in another distant US state (with no local office). Do I miss friendly banter with some previous coworkers whom I liked on a personal level? Yes. Do I miss it enough to want to go back to an arrangement where I was expected to be in-office 2-3 days a week. Absolutely not. For me the benefits in productivity and convenience while working from home outweigh the camaraderie or team lunches or whatever. I still lunch with some of my former coworkers semi-regularly. We pick a place fairly central and those who can show up do. Does this mean that I'm a socially inept miscreant? I think not. It just means that I prefer working in an environment that is maximally comfortable and of my own choosing. To drive my point home allow me to make a statement: I will never again accept any position that requires me in the office full-time or really any more than a single day per week at most. I just do not have to. I don't tend to target working for <impressive-brand-name-company>, so I have plenty of choices to work with lesser-known companies whom are (very) happy to find someone competent to help them build out their tech stacks. I've found that those lesser-known companies are much less likely to push hardball WFO tactics. If they do...then I simply start answering my unsolicited emails. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good luck to you, OP. I hope you find happiness out there.

beauzero 4y ago

I don't understand why people don't want to do WFH to reduce carbon emissions. It seems like the quickest way an individual can reduce their emissions.