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Ukraine’s economy seems to be growing again

karkov 4y ago
It is very cynic to stipulate a growth when the country lost its industrial regions due to Russian invasion By the way the historical issue of corruption is not yet answered https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-is-ukraine-such-an-economic-failure https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-is-ukraine-such-an-eco...
- nix23 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - darthrupert 4y ago
    We don't have to downvote truth, dear HN. Ukrainians' positive sentiments toward a clearly nazi individual is a problem, but it doesn't nullify Russia's imperalism and it doesn't justify their own form of fascism.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Ukrainians' positive sentiments toward a clearly nazi individual is a problem It’s also irrelevant. I am anti-stealing. But if I’m being assaulted by a madman and a professional thief steps in to help, I’m going to take their help and I’m going to thank them for it.
      - nix23 4y ago
        Again i am absolutely against the russian aggression. But just imagine Merkel would say (in 2010) Goebbels is now a "Hero of Germany for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent German state"" ....national ideas by killing 130'000 Children's, Woman's and unarmed Men's.... It's not irrelevant if a massive amount of your population thinks your better then others and being a nazi is a good thing, and peoples from Donetsk are subhumans. Then they forbid to teach russian in schools, and russian speaking -> Ukrainian channel's had to switch language, same with newsletter's (i think that was 2019), really that's not nationalist bullshit?? But btw...are you also anti killing...because that's what Bandera and the Azov Regiment do and did. And just if you haven't read it, i am against the russian aggression. The problem with your example is that the thief and the madman are both equal bad for your country/house, you are just the buffer and the bleeding part between those two. It's called proxy-war.
        zarqan 4y ago
        > But just imagine Merkel would say (in 2010) Goebbels is now a "Hero of Germany for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent German state Germany is a poor example for your point. Both the German government and the German federal army still honour Col. Stauffenberg as a "role model" (Here is an article from a 2019 ceremony commemorating the attempted 20 July coup where they clearly state this: https://www.dbwv.de/aktuelle-themen/blickpunkt/beitrag/regierung-und-bundeswehr-gedenken-hitler-attentaetern/ https://www.dbwv.de/aktuelle-themen/blickpunkt/beitrag/regie... - it's in German, but you can use google translate). Note that Stauffenberg - despite his attempted coup - never repudiated fascism, antisemitism, or German militarism. Same goes for other well-known European politicians e.g. "father of the Austrian Republic" Karl Renner, an anti-semite who opposed the return of Jews even after the reestablishment of independent Austria post-WWII. In general, many interwar European "national role models" were unreconstructed racists who held abhorrent beliefs. > It's not irrelevant if a massive amount of your population thinks your better then others and being a nazi is a good thing, and peoples from Donetsk are subhumans. Then they forbid to teach russian in schools, and russian speaking -> Ukrainian channel's had to switch language, same with newsletter's (i think that was 2019), really that's not nationalist bullshit?? The law in question sets quotas for the use of Ukrainian in official media outlets & education, and mandates the use of Ukrainian as a national language. The UN produced a report on the law [1], and notes that "Many of the controversial points were subsequently addressed in the final version". The law does not ban Russian (or any other minority language) in any way. Many democratic states in the EU incl. France, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania have language policies which are arguably harsher & much more restrictive than anything implemented in Ukraine. In particular, France is especially aggressive in enforcing the use of French in public & commercial settings and actively issues fines to companies that do not abide by the language law. [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/2019.09.11%20-%20Analytical%20Note%20-%20Language%20Law%20ENG.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/2019.09.1...
        hbrn 4y ago
        > It's called proxy-war. And what are the sides in this proxy war, US and Russia? Was it a proxy war when Crimea was annexed? Or when Russian military entered eastern Ukraine? Or when Georgia was invaded? Either US is surprisingly good at starting these proxy wars and Russia is incredibly stupid to be falling for the same trick over and over and over. Or maybe those are just land grabs by Russia, and US involvement here is tangential.
      - darthrupert 4y ago
        It is totally irrelevant now but massively relevant after the war is over, at least if Ukraine wins. It would be surprising if an onslaught from a sworn enemy wouldn't give a further rise to nationalistic sentiment. It would be understandable but it would also be a problem that needs to be fixed. Preferably before they join EU and Nato.
  - hbrn 4y ago
    Somehow spikes in support for those correlate with Russia invasions. It's almost as if those are related... Fun fact: the only time when far right had any power in Ukrainian parliament was during pro-Russian president. After he fled to Russia they've never been able to cross electoral threshold. They currently hold one (!) seat in the parliament. That's all you need to know about Nazi support in Ukraine.
- Proven 4y ago
LegitShady 4y ago
The Russians are still actively attacking including destroying infrastructure with loitering munitions. This is so premature as to be either foolish or manipulation.
- snapcaster 4y ago
  You listed two options but you're forgetting a third: you have almost no reliable information or context so the actual choices made aren't interpretable by you in any meaningful way
  - somenameforme 4y ago
    One of the most informative and interesting things one can do to help evaluate the statements being made today from a site are to test the statements made in months past, and see how it panned out. Here is the archive for The Economist. [1] Of course past failure or success doesn't really mean the same will continue, but it at least gives a broad indicator that's much better than nothing. The war began on February 24th. [1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20220000000000*/https://www.economist.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220000000000*/https://www.econ...
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    when someone tries to sell you a donkey as a purebred stallion, they're either a thief or an idiot. You could say 'well I don't have reliable context' and buy that donkey but I wouldn't.
71a54xd 4y ago
Is this literally a joke? We've sent billions of dollars to their country in weapons, the country is literally a war zone and has an elaborate history of corruption. The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies. I'll cite Economics Explained video on the subject - this is propaganda plain and simple. It's insane the lengths to which we as America are willing to prop up a war we had no business getting involved in or stoking :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCt-jsnUnXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCt-jsnUnXo
- theropost 4y ago
  This is some accounting magic. Maybe theyre including the value of the weapondry NATO and company are shipping in.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  >The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies. The Ukrainian oligarchs are probably doing pretty well.
Garvi 4y ago
Last time I tried pointing out objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers, I don't even know the Russian ones), I was promptly shadowbanned as was every other comment not strictly critical of Russia. People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) and immediately stop relying on social media as their information source. Unfortunately that means HN too for everything political. As a person who studied propaganda as part of my communicology education I have to point out the role social media plays in the current conflict: - social media moderators are the new gatekeepers of information - most social media moderators are working for free - they are working for the gratification - they restrict information according to their own personal biases. They are not the kind of people that check the of information presented. They would rarely go against the will of the community - the resulting effect is an echo chamber in which everyone is in virtual agreement over important issues. This forces most people to rethink their positions or face being ostracized - people that persist, will get continuously silenced until they leave the community - since this is also happening to this forum, expect a drop in comment quality, because many posters are leaving as they are dissuaded from participating in the community In this thread we're talking about the upswing of the Ukranian economy, right after having a big chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in the past few days of bombing. So in case you're wondering how it's possible people believe such nonsense, this is your explanation. They either don't and leave, or for the sake of inclusion in the community, change their views to whatever is being displayed as the overwhelmingly supported position. There is only a slim chance this post won't be removed after minutes and I will probably leave after that.
- hackandthink 4y ago
  "Here in the U.S., the war has also exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of an ideologically diverse set of foreign-policy commentators: the “anti-imperialists” who routinely justify blatant acts of imperial conquest, and the “realists” who make arguments unmoored from reality." This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-camp-intellectually-bankrupt/671576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-c...
kbelder 4y ago
I think that Ukraine's economy is in a war footing and can't reasonably be compared to non-war metrics. I am sure that many or most Ukrainians are working and producing the hardest they've ever done. But the returns they are working for are not financial. Not strictly. You just can't apply normal standards. Ukraine is bustling; even flaring up. Can they sustain it? I hope they can, long enough. They're certainly managing better than Russia. You feel very alive and alert when somebody pulls a gun on you; doesn't mean that's a healthy way to live.

It is very cynic to stipulate a growth when the country lost its industrial regions due to Russian invasion By the way the historical issue of corruption is not yet answered https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-is-ukraine-such-an-economic-failure https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-is-ukraine-such-an-eco...

nix23 4y ago
[flagged]
- darthrupert 4y ago
  We don't have to downvote truth, dear HN. Ukrainians' positive sentiments toward a clearly nazi individual is a problem, but it doesn't nullify Russia's imperalism and it doesn't justify their own form of fascism.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Ukrainians' positive sentiments toward a clearly nazi individual is a problem It’s also irrelevant. I am anti-stealing. But if I’m being assaulted by a madman and a professional thief steps in to help, I’m going to take their help and I’m going to thank them for it.
    - nix23 4y ago
      Again i am absolutely against the russian aggression. But just imagine Merkel would say (in 2010) Goebbels is now a "Hero of Germany for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent German state"" ....national ideas by killing 130'000 Children's, Woman's and unarmed Men's.... It's not irrelevant if a massive amount of your population thinks your better then others and being a nazi is a good thing, and peoples from Donetsk are subhumans. Then they forbid to teach russian in schools, and russian speaking -> Ukrainian channel's had to switch language, same with newsletter's (i think that was 2019), really that's not nationalist bullshit?? But btw...are you also anti killing...because that's what Bandera and the Azov Regiment do and did. And just if you haven't read it, i am against the russian aggression. The problem with your example is that the thief and the madman are both equal bad for your country/house, you are just the buffer and the bleeding part between those two. It's called proxy-war.
      - zarqan 4y ago
        > But just imagine Merkel would say (in 2010) Goebbels is now a "Hero of Germany for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent German state Germany is a poor example for your point. Both the German government and the German federal army still honour Col. Stauffenberg as a "role model" (Here is an article from a 2019 ceremony commemorating the attempted 20 July coup where they clearly state this: https://www.dbwv.de/aktuelle-themen/blickpunkt/beitrag/regierung-und-bundeswehr-gedenken-hitler-attentaetern/ https://www.dbwv.de/aktuelle-themen/blickpunkt/beitrag/regie... - it's in German, but you can use google translate). Note that Stauffenberg - despite his attempted coup - never repudiated fascism, antisemitism, or German militarism. Same goes for other well-known European politicians e.g. "father of the Austrian Republic" Karl Renner, an anti-semite who opposed the return of Jews even after the reestablishment of independent Austria post-WWII. In general, many interwar European "national role models" were unreconstructed racists who held abhorrent beliefs. > It's not irrelevant if a massive amount of your population thinks your better then others and being a nazi is a good thing, and peoples from Donetsk are subhumans. Then they forbid to teach russian in schools, and russian speaking -> Ukrainian channel's had to switch language, same with newsletter's (i think that was 2019), really that's not nationalist bullshit?? The law in question sets quotas for the use of Ukrainian in official media outlets & education, and mandates the use of Ukrainian as a national language. The UN produced a report on the law [1], and notes that "Many of the controversial points were subsequently addressed in the final version". The law does not ban Russian (or any other minority language) in any way. Many democratic states in the EU incl. France, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania have language policies which are arguably harsher & much more restrictive than anything implemented in Ukraine. In particular, France is especially aggressive in enforcing the use of French in public & commercial settings and actively issues fines to companies that do not abide by the language law. [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/2019.09.11%20-%20Analytical%20Note%20-%20Language%20Law%20ENG.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/2019.09.1...
      - hbrn 4y ago
        > It's called proxy-war. And what are the sides in this proxy war, US and Russia? Was it a proxy war when Crimea was annexed? Or when Russian military entered eastern Ukraine? Or when Georgia was invaded? Either US is surprisingly good at starting these proxy wars and Russia is incredibly stupid to be falling for the same trick over and over and over. Or maybe those are just land grabs by Russia, and US involvement here is tangential.
    - darthrupert 4y ago
      It is totally irrelevant now but massively relevant after the war is over, at least if Ukraine wins. It would be surprising if an onslaught from a sworn enemy wouldn't give a further rise to nationalistic sentiment. It would be understandable but it would also be a problem that needs to be fixed. Preferably before they join EU and Nato.
- hbrn 4y ago
  Somehow spikes in support for those correlate with Russia invasions. It's almost as if those are related... Fun fact: the only time when far right had any power in Ukrainian parliament was during pro-Russian president. After he fled to Russia they've never been able to cross electoral threshold. They currently hold one (!) seat in the parliament. That's all you need to know about Nazi support in Ukraine.
Proven 4y ago

LegitShady 4y ago

The Russians are still actively attacking including destroying infrastructure with loitering munitions. This is so premature as to be either foolish or manipulation.

snapcaster 4y ago
You listed two options but you're forgetting a third: you have almost no reliable information or context so the actual choices made aren't interpretable by you in any meaningful way
- somenameforme 4y ago
  One of the most informative and interesting things one can do to help evaluate the statements being made today from a site are to test the statements made in months past, and see how it panned out. Here is the archive for The Economist. [1] Of course past failure or success doesn't really mean the same will continue, but it at least gives a broad indicator that's much better than nothing. The war began on February 24th. [1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20220000000000*/https://www.economist.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220000000000*/https://www.econ...
- LegitShady 4y ago
  when someone tries to sell you a donkey as a purebred stallion, they're either a thief or an idiot. You could say 'well I don't have reliable context' and buy that donkey but I wouldn't.

71a54xd 4y ago

Is this literally a joke? We've sent billions of dollars to their country in weapons, the country is literally a war zone and has an elaborate history of corruption. The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies. I'll cite Economics Explained video on the subject - this is propaganda plain and simple. It's insane the lengths to which we as America are willing to prop up a war we had no business getting involved in or stoking :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCt-jsnUnXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCt-jsnUnXo

theropost 4y ago
This is some accounting magic. Maybe theyre including the value of the weapondry NATO and company are shipping in.
_-david-_ 4y ago
>The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies. The Ukrainian oligarchs are probably doing pretty well.

Garvi 4y ago

Last time I tried pointing out objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers, I don't even know the Russian ones), I was promptly shadowbanned as was every other comment not strictly critical of Russia. People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) and immediately stop relying on social media as their information source. Unfortunately that means HN too for everything political. As a person who studied propaganda as part of my communicology education I have to point out the role social media plays in the current conflict: - social media moderators are the new gatekeepers of information - most social media moderators are working for free - they are working for the gratification - they restrict information according to their own personal biases. They are not the kind of people that check the of information presented. They would rarely go against the will of the community - the resulting effect is an echo chamber in which everyone is in virtual agreement over important issues. This forces most people to rethink their positions or face being ostracized - people that persist, will get continuously silenced until they leave the community - since this is also happening to this forum, expect a drop in comment quality, because many posters are leaving as they are dissuaded from participating in the community In this thread we're talking about the upswing of the Ukranian economy, right after having a big chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in the past few days of bombing. So in case you're wondering how it's possible people believe such nonsense, this is your explanation. They either don't and leave, or for the sake of inclusion in the community, change their views to whatever is being displayed as the overwhelmingly supported position. There is only a slim chance this post won't be removed after minutes and I will probably leave after that.

hackandthink 4y ago
"Here in the U.S., the war has also exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of an ideologically diverse set of foreign-policy commentators: the “anti-imperialists” who routinely justify blatant acts of imperial conquest, and the “realists” who make arguments unmoored from reality." This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-camp-intellectually-bankrupt/671576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-c...

kbelder 4y ago

I think that Ukraine's economy is in a war footing and can't reasonably be compared to non-war metrics. I am sure that many or most Ukrainians are working and producing the hardest they've ever done. But the returns they are working for are not financial. Not strictly. You just can't apply normal standards. Ukraine is bustling; even flaring up. Can they sustain it? I hope they can, long enough. They're certainly managing better than Russia. You feel very alive and alert when somebody pulls a gun on you; doesn't mean that's a healthy way to live.