4 ms·

It's amazing to me how virtual and real pinball are really not comparable at all in terms of enjoyment (at least for me personally). I still don't really unders

by elil17 4y ago

It's amazing to me how virtual and real pinball are really not comparable at all in terms of enjoyment (at least for me personally). I still don't really understand why.

degenerate 4y ago
It's not a surprise to me. True depth of field, 3D sound, pulling the pin, the mechanical "clack" of the flippers and physically holding the machine all play into the experience.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Have yet to build a virtual-pinball cabinet (but it's on my short list). Flipper clack, holding the machine will be there. Depth of field will not. We'll see how enjoyable it is.
  - _fat_santa 4y ago
    I'm thinking one day I'll probably buy a real pinball machine for my office. Though looking at one site they are pretty expensive ($5k - $20k depending on the model), though I'm sure you could find one for under $5k which is starting to enter the realm of "maybe my wife won't kill me".
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mrandish 4y ago
      Pins are fun to own but the pricing has gotten inflated since 2019. If you get into your local pin community you can likely still find machines for $2k-$4k though they may need a little work to bring up to top level. The pricing varies widely based on the condition and popularity of the particular machine. Fortunately, the pinball collector community is large so there's good availability of information and parts to maintain and restore machines. You can start down the rabbit hole at www.pinside.com
- elil17 4y ago
  Virtual pinball machines (like tables with screens instead of an actual play-field) have all this but they are still not the same.
JonathanFly 4y ago
>It's amazing to me how virtual and real pinball are really not comparable at all in terms of enjoyment (at least for me personally). I still don't really understand why. Have you tried it in VR? With free head movement, and proper 3D sound simulation, the physics feel a lot more real. It's still missing good haptics. I think the PS5 DualSense force-feedback controllers and trigger might be able to give you the feeling of the ball rolling around different places, but I don't see anyone trying to make this work in virtual pinball yet.
- mrandish 4y ago
  Some people have added real flipper solenoids under the screen and several transducers to emulate subtle vibrations.
- elil17 4y ago
  I haven't tried VR but I have used virtual pinball tables with all the bells and whistles (e.g. thumper solenoids). I still don't find it that fun.
  - KVFinn 4y ago
    I had the same reaction to flat tables, but VR was far better.
vikingerik 4y ago
Virtual pinball has a tiny fraction of the physical behavior of real machines. There are tons of subtleties that are still beyond the scope of what anyone has implemented virtually. Balls have all sorts of behavior that goes beyond the typical X-Y coordinates implemented virtually. They spin and slide across the playfield with all sorts of varying degrees and forces. Their motion is very 3d even on a 2d playfield - a moving ball can have a spin axis aligned anywhere on its sphere, and spin at any rate compared to its horizontal motion, and recognizing and handling that is very much a component of advanced play. Flippers and kickers also have immense subtleties to their behavior. One that no simulation yet gets right is the softness of the rubber on the flipper - balls sink into that rubber by a fraction of a millimeter, and rebound in different ways based on that. Besides that, there are tons of details about how the flipper accelerates and decelerates on a time scale of milliseconds, that an experienced player can feel on a real machine. Timing also matters. Flipper inputs on a computer are almost always constrained for input timing resolution by the host hardware and OS platforms, typically to a 1/60 second frame rate. Real machines respond hard real time instantly, in under 1 ms. This matters quite a bit too for the degree of control you have over the game. And of course there's nudging a machine, which has infinite degrees of freedom for direction and intensity (push, slide, shove, slap) that can't be replicated by any virtual controller.
- elil17 4y ago
  This makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation. I guess getting a physically accurate simulation to run in real time would be quite difficult.
- BizarroLand 4y ago
  Don't forget the haptic feedback that has not been replicated by any controller yet. The thwock that travels from push button to flipper hit is such a specific sensation that even describing it textually is difficult. Virtual machines may be infinitely move variable and compact than any physical table, but nothing beats the real thing.

by elil17 4y ago

It's amazing to me how virtual and real pinball are really not comparable at all in terms of enjoyment (at least for me personally). I still don't really understand why.

degenerate 4y ago

It's not a surprise to me. True depth of field, 3D sound, pulling the pin, the mechanical "clack" of the flippers and physically holding the machine all play into the experience.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Have yet to build a virtual-pinball cabinet (but it's on my short list). Flipper clack, holding the machine will be there. Depth of field will not. We'll see how enjoyable it is.
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  I'm thinking one day I'll probably buy a real pinball machine for my office. Though looking at one site they are pretty expensive ($5k - $20k depending on the model), though I'm sure you could find one for under $5k which is starting to enter the realm of "maybe my wife won't kill me".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrandish 4y ago
    Pins are fun to own but the pricing has gotten inflated since 2019. If you get into your local pin community you can likely still find machines for $2k-$4k though they may need a little work to bring up to top level. The pricing varies widely based on the condition and popularity of the particular machine. Fortunately, the pinball collector community is large so there's good availability of information and parts to maintain and restore machines. You can start down the rabbit hole at www.pinside.com
elil17 4y ago
Virtual pinball machines (like tables with screens instead of an actual play-field) have all this but they are still not the same.

JonathanFly 4y ago

>It's amazing to me how virtual and real pinball are really not comparable at all in terms of enjoyment (at least for me personally). I still don't really understand why. Have you tried it in VR? With free head movement, and proper 3D sound simulation, the physics feel a lot more real. It's still missing good haptics. I think the PS5 DualSense force-feedback controllers and trigger might be able to give you the feeling of the ball rolling around different places, but I don't see anyone trying to make this work in virtual pinball yet.

mrandish 4y ago
Some people have added real flipper solenoids under the screen and several transducers to emulate subtle vibrations.
elil17 4y ago
I haven't tried VR but I have used virtual pinball tables with all the bells and whistles (e.g. thumper solenoids). I still don't find it that fun.
- KVFinn 4y ago
  I had the same reaction to flat tables, but VR was far better.

vikingerik 4y ago

Virtual pinball has a tiny fraction of the physical behavior of real machines. There are tons of subtleties that are still beyond the scope of what anyone has implemented virtually. Balls have all sorts of behavior that goes beyond the typical X-Y coordinates implemented virtually. They spin and slide across the playfield with all sorts of varying degrees and forces. Their motion is very 3d even on a 2d playfield - a moving ball can have a spin axis aligned anywhere on its sphere, and spin at any rate compared to its horizontal motion, and recognizing and handling that is very much a component of advanced play. Flippers and kickers also have immense subtleties to their behavior. One that no simulation yet gets right is the softness of the rubber on the flipper - balls sink into that rubber by a fraction of a millimeter, and rebound in different ways based on that. Besides that, there are tons of details about how the flipper accelerates and decelerates on a time scale of milliseconds, that an experienced player can feel on a real machine. Timing also matters. Flipper inputs on a computer are almost always constrained for input timing resolution by the host hardware and OS platforms, typically to a 1/60 second frame rate. Real machines respond hard real time instantly, in under 1 ms. This matters quite a bit too for the degree of control you have over the game. And of course there's nudging a machine, which has infinite degrees of freedom for direction and intensity (push, slide, shove, slap) that can't be replicated by any virtual controller.

elil17 4y ago
This makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation. I guess getting a physically accurate simulation to run in real time would be quite difficult.
BizarroLand 4y ago
Don't forget the haptic feedback that has not been replicated by any controller yet. The thwock that travels from push button to flipper hit is such a specific sensation that even describing it textually is difficult. Virtual machines may be infinitely move variable and compact than any physical table, but nothing beats the real thing.