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> But an even better response would have been engagement around 5-6 years ago to keep everyone calm and the armies staying home. This is naive thinking. Putin

> But an even better response would have been engagement around 5-6 years ago to keep everyone calm and the armies staying home. This is naive thinking. Putin has been destabilising, manipulating and annexing parts of its neighbours for decades and it was always going to continue. When reclaiming former glory is your goal talking isn't going to change anything as Obama, Macron, Scholtz etc have all found out.

roenxi 4y ago
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > Putin says the goal is to deal with NATO in the first paragraph of his February speech... A week earlier they were saying there were no plans to invade Ukraine. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-te... Why would you believe him immediately after a clear lie? The NATO stuff is a thin excuse akin to a playground bully threatening bystanders against intervening.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    Yes, I do believe him. When people tell you why they are doing something they are often telling the truth, especially when it makes sense. Political leaders have to tell their people what they are doing and why from time to time, otherwise things don't get done. I mean, where is your quote for why you think he is trying to reclaim former glory? When I say I think it was because of NATO there are actually quite a few Russians saying variants of things like "oh no, NATO is coming, we have to start moving the army to defend ourselves". Eg I was reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaganov_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaganov_Doctrine while arguing with pjc upthread.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > I mean, where is your quote for why you think he is trying to reclaiming former glory? That's not me. > Yes, I do believe him. Despite all evidence. Yikes.
      - roenxi 4y ago
        Ok, fair enough. I think NATO. Putin thinks NATO. What do you think Putin thinks? It isn't to rebuild the USSR. That is a stupid goal, he can't do it and he hasn't expressed any particular interest in it as far as I know.

roenxi 4y ago

ceejayoz 4y ago
> Putin says the goal is to deal with NATO in the first paragraph of his February speech... A week earlier they were saying there were no plans to invade Ukraine. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-te... Why would you believe him immediately after a clear lie? The NATO stuff is a thin excuse akin to a playground bully threatening bystanders against intervening.
- roenxi 4y ago
  Yes, I do believe him. When people tell you why they are doing something they are often telling the truth, especially when it makes sense. Political leaders have to tell their people what they are doing and why from time to time, otherwise things don't get done. I mean, where is your quote for why you think he is trying to reclaim former glory? When I say I think it was because of NATO there are actually quite a few Russians saying variants of things like "oh no, NATO is coming, we have to start moving the army to defend ourselves". Eg I was reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaganov_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaganov_Doctrine while arguing with pjc upthread.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > I mean, where is your quote for why you think he is trying to reclaiming former glory? That's not me. > Yes, I do believe him. Despite all evidence. Yikes.
    - roenxi 4y ago
      Ok, fair enough. I think NATO. Putin thinks NATO. What do you think Putin thinks? It isn't to rebuild the USSR. That is a stupid goal, he can't do it and he hasn't expressed any particular interest in it as far as I know.