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They are now simply treating Russia with the same lack of dignity they have treated private customers in Europe and USA with for over a decade. A substantial am

They are now simply treating Russia with the same lack of dignity they have treated private customers in Europe and USA with for over a decade. A substantial amount of what's sold to western customers on e.g. AliExpress, BangGood, GearBest etc. are product lots that didn't pass QA. They are dumping e-waste on us, and we pay for it. A fantastic trade trick.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>They are dumping e-waste on us, and we pay for it. A fantastic trade trick. To be fair, western corporations were the ones who made the big move of offshoring all goods manufacturing to China in the first place and turn them into e-waste in a constant race to the bottom of lower and lower costs and higher and higher margins along with insane executive pay for their genius move. Hardly China's fault. Hate the game, not the player, and this game was made by the west, and China has just gotten really good at playing it. The best way to fight this is to bring back manufacturing (it's already cheaper to build certain stuff in some EU countries than in China) along with products that last longer and are more easily repaired. Western consumers would just have to stomach higher cost of goods, and western corporations would have to stomach lower margins, but it's definitely doable if desired, but it won't happen.
- oytis 4y ago
  Lowering costs and increasing margins is the game of the business everywhere, east or west. It is largely the policies of Chinese government that made manufacturing in China especially lucrative, even considering the bad business culture.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >Lowering costs and increasing margins is the game of the business everywhere Sure, but there is no free lunch. You're getting cheaper stuff but for that you're sacrificing your local industry and the environment by offshoring the environmental damage to places with less environmental protection laws. There is no free lunch. The right way to lower cost is by pursuing automation, not by offshoring the environmental damage and using sweatshop workers in areas with human rights violations.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      If you avoid the cost, you benefit from an externality and have a free lunch for a limited time (or, lunch someone else paid for)
    - oytis 4y ago
      Thinking about local industry and environment is a government's job I would say. Government sets the rules, and businesses optimise profits under these rules. I would say Western governments did a poor jobs protecting their countries from unfair competition from China, but also the practices are indeed unfair, I can't agree Chinese government is not to blame.
    - trasz 4y ago
      >sweatshop workers in areas with human rights violations Such as USA with $11B of goods manufactured by forced labour in prison camps? (Note: this is not whataboutism, it’s pointing out hypocrisy.)
  - cosmodisk 4y ago
    The service company I used to work for got acquired by a much larger US based company. So the CEO flew in to to do some presentations, answer questions, etc. One thing that stuck in my head was when he was talking about price based competition: there are people flying in private jets around the globe negotiating a single penny off a dollar and that won't stop any time soon.
- pif 4y ago
  You are wrong in pointing your finger to the business: we the buyers are to blame! We don't buy "good", we don't buy "local", we don't buy "our farmers are fairly compensated", we don't buy "ecological": we only buy "cheap". We lost our manufacturing jobs because we insisted on pretending Western wage but Chinese prices: 1- We discovered ourselves rich when we found out that a median Western wage could buy us much more stuff if spent half a planet away, but we never took the time to appreciate the consequences of such huge capital flows (hint: our wages made us rich up to the moment the wages were no more). 2- We stopped accepting polluted air in our cities, but did not tolerate the higher prices of those factories that installed filters. Net result: industries either outsourced or collapsed. There is no bringing back manufacturing without ensuring that a Western and a non-Western blue collar enjoy the same quality of life.
  - ohgodplsno 4y ago
    That would be an acceptable answer if we were all wealthy within the same country, but we both know it's not the case. People buy cheap because they can't afford to buy expensive. Putting in 60 dollars in a USB hub is some privileged behavior. Many people just need those prices to be low, because they don't make much, because rent takes away most of what they have, etc. As to why they're not paid much, I'll let you circle back to said companies that keep increasing their margin with cheap chinese products, without ever redistributing that wealth.
    - pif 4y ago
      > People buy cheap because they can't afford to buy expensive. Not really: people bought cheap because they couldn't afford to buy expensive, and then they lost their job, and now they can't even afford cheap. When we started exploiting poor people from far away, in a moment we found out that our wages could give us a much better life than their wages, but we never wondered why, and we never got upset that they couldn't afford the same quality of life like ours (while doing exactly the same job). The illusion was very sweet while it lasted, then outsourcing came and the illusion vanished, and we passed from being rich with a blue collar wage to not having any wage. Not being able to buy expensive does not imply buying cheap: buying fewer things is still an option. We bought cheap because we were greedy, because we hated breathing pollution and we wanted strong unions in our factories, but we could not care less about the same issues for the "others". And we just kept illuding ourselves that we could keep up with a better life for the same job, just because. We, the Western buyers, were greedy. And idiots. We swapped our jobs for cheap smartphones.
dncornholio 4y ago
I'd like some factual arguments because I bought plenty of stuff from there and the quality always surprised me. Dumping e-waste seems a bit of a stretch.
- daneel_w 4y ago
  > ... and the quality always surprised me. Why did the quality surprise you? Either you had some presumptions because everyone who ever spent money there - in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components - know what a gamble it can be and are talking about it, or you have experienced this reality yourself but for some reason want to tone it down. Which is it?
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    I keep hearing how terrible components from China are. High reputation sellers on the site are great, and I say this having spend around $100k in electronics for various projects. By comparison getting the parts locally usually means having to talk to someone who bought them from the same place and is just charging you extra for having a postal address in the same country.
  - licebmi__at__ 4y ago
    Or maybe because you’re used to higher prices and when you find a product on a fraction of the price you obviously consider that quality might be lesser. So it’s surprising when the quality is comparable to the (sometimes much more) expensive product.
  - dncornholio 4y ago
    Because I expected nothing and I got some real value out of my purchases. Everything from decorative items to electronics. I expected nothing, but got good value out of those purchases.
vdfs 4y ago
> AliExpress, BangGood, GearBest That's not always right, I did get a lot of things from Amazon thinking it's quality stuff that turn out to be just the same thing AliExpress sell with a nice white label and more markups. For example, i got a couple of Anker USB-C hubs, but recently story here show that many hubs are made by same manufacturer who offer whitelabeling
- dncornholio 4y ago
  That's the problem. Western companies are putting their logo on these cheap products. We are the problem, not China. On Amazon you can find the same exact same USB hub, for anything between 20 and 80 dollar. Exact same electronics.
  - igravious 4y ago
    [flagged]
- daneel_w 4y ago
  eBay and Amazon are also outlets for the same Chinese goods.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  It's been several years that the stuff from AliExpress is sold on Amazon and eBay; sometimes you can tell straight away, sometimes you need to go deeper. I'd say it's quite difficult to buy quality stuff from Amazon today. I bookmarked a few sellers I bought things from in the past but as for new sellers it's a lottery.
Dawnyhf5 4y ago
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
yep, there's a great book "Poorly made in china" ( https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 ) that explains how the do it... It's basically making a deal, and them replacing the components until you notice, then making you pay more for more expensive components, even though the more expensive ones were in the original deal. Sometimes also replacing key components, because someone from the factory tought that they were 'better' (=cheaper for the company)
- KingOfCoders 4y ago
  They learned that from outsourcing companies. Replacing people with less-experienced ones until you notice, then let you pay for additional people, or QA, or project management.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Yep, plus additional tactics, like waiting for the importer (of chinese goods to eg. USA) to get a huge deal, and then raising the price, because the importer has to deliver the goods in a relatively short term, and there's no time to change the supplier. Also (in the case from the book - cosmetics) a lot of questionable health/hygine practices.
Barrin92 4y ago
I've ordered considerable amounts of stuff rom AliExpress and while it's true that you need to exercise some caution I wouldn't call issues substantial. Also this isn't really about dumping e-waste on foreigners, China's business culture, in particular informal markets always play fast and loose, including domestically. Gotta have a little bit of an instinct who you can buy from.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  For some things AliExpress can hardly be beat, and when a small cheap part bought there repairs a much more complex appliance here, it can, counter-intuitively, even be the most sustainable thing to do. It does take some getting used to the platform. > […] including domestically. That's the key thing to understand. This isn't about dumping e-waste on foreigners specifically, it's just capitalism at its most unregulated and the same crap you can buy from AliExpress the Chinese can buy too on Taobao.
  - simonh 4y ago
    Right, the problem in China is lack of regulation and weak rule of law. So much for 'Strong Governance'.
- daneel_w 4y ago
  >... and while it's true that you need to exercise some caution I wouldn't call issues substantial. If it wasn't substantial you wouldn't need to exercise caution. I, too, have bought considerable amounts of stuff from DX, AliX, from Chinese vendors on eBay etc., and it's almost always a gamble, in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components.
  - GTP 4y ago
    > in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components. I have the opposite stance. I buy components nearly entirely on Aliexpress, as it turns out that on Amazon you get the exact same stuff, with the difference that the shipping might be faster (but not always) and the price is much higher.
trasz 4y ago
- daneel_w 4y ago
  I'm neither American nor a snowflake. I know the gamble, and for my personal account and expenses I'm OK with it. But I'm not OK with it being a systemic and calculated abuse.
baybal2 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>They are dumping e-waste on us, and we pay for it. A fantastic trade trick. To be fair, western corporations were the ones who made the big move of offshoring all goods manufacturing to China in the first place and turn them into e-waste in a constant race to the bottom of lower and lower costs and higher and higher margins along with insane executive pay for their genius move. Hardly China's fault. Hate the game, not the player, and this game was made by the west, and China has just gotten really good at playing it. The best way to fight this is to bring back manufacturing (it's already cheaper to build certain stuff in some EU countries than in China) along with products that last longer and are more easily repaired. Western consumers would just have to stomach higher cost of goods, and western corporations would have to stomach lower margins, but it's definitely doable if desired, but it won't happen.

oytis 4y ago
Lowering costs and increasing margins is the game of the business everywhere, east or west. It is largely the policies of Chinese government that made manufacturing in China especially lucrative, even considering the bad business culture.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Lowering costs and increasing margins is the game of the business everywhere Sure, but there is no free lunch. You're getting cheaper stuff but for that you're sacrificing your local industry and the environment by offshoring the environmental damage to places with less environmental protection laws. There is no free lunch. The right way to lower cost is by pursuing automation, not by offshoring the environmental damage and using sweatshop workers in areas with human rights violations.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    If you avoid the cost, you benefit from an externality and have a free lunch for a limited time (or, lunch someone else paid for)
  - oytis 4y ago
    Thinking about local industry and environment is a government's job I would say. Government sets the rules, and businesses optimise profits under these rules. I would say Western governments did a poor jobs protecting their countries from unfair competition from China, but also the practices are indeed unfair, I can't agree Chinese government is not to blame.
  - trasz 4y ago
    >sweatshop workers in areas with human rights violations Such as USA with $11B of goods manufactured by forced labour in prison camps? (Note: this is not whataboutism, it’s pointing out hypocrisy.)
- cosmodisk 4y ago
  The service company I used to work for got acquired by a much larger US based company. So the CEO flew in to to do some presentations, answer questions, etc. One thing that stuck in my head was when he was talking about price based competition: there are people flying in private jets around the globe negotiating a single penny off a dollar and that won't stop any time soon.
pif 4y ago
You are wrong in pointing your finger to the business: we the buyers are to blame! We don't buy "good", we don't buy "local", we don't buy "our farmers are fairly compensated", we don't buy "ecological": we only buy "cheap". We lost our manufacturing jobs because we insisted on pretending Western wage but Chinese prices: 1- We discovered ourselves rich when we found out that a median Western wage could buy us much more stuff if spent half a planet away, but we never took the time to appreciate the consequences of such huge capital flows (hint: our wages made us rich up to the moment the wages were no more). 2- We stopped accepting polluted air in our cities, but did not tolerate the higher prices of those factories that installed filters. Net result: industries either outsourced or collapsed. There is no bringing back manufacturing without ensuring that a Western and a non-Western blue collar enjoy the same quality of life.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  That would be an acceptable answer if we were all wealthy within the same country, but we both know it's not the case. People buy cheap because they can't afford to buy expensive. Putting in 60 dollars in a USB hub is some privileged behavior. Many people just need those prices to be low, because they don't make much, because rent takes away most of what they have, etc. As to why they're not paid much, I'll let you circle back to said companies that keep increasing their margin with cheap chinese products, without ever redistributing that wealth.
  - pif 4y ago
    > People buy cheap because they can't afford to buy expensive. Not really: people bought cheap because they couldn't afford to buy expensive, and then they lost their job, and now they can't even afford cheap. When we started exploiting poor people from far away, in a moment we found out that our wages could give us a much better life than their wages, but we never wondered why, and we never got upset that they couldn't afford the same quality of life like ours (while doing exactly the same job). The illusion was very sweet while it lasted, then outsourcing came and the illusion vanished, and we passed from being rich with a blue collar wage to not having any wage. Not being able to buy expensive does not imply buying cheap: buying fewer things is still an option. We bought cheap because we were greedy, because we hated breathing pollution and we wanted strong unions in our factories, but we could not care less about the same issues for the "others". And we just kept illuding ourselves that we could keep up with a better life for the same job, just because. We, the Western buyers, were greedy. And idiots. We swapped our jobs for cheap smartphones.

dncornholio 4y ago

I'd like some factual arguments because I bought plenty of stuff from there and the quality always surprised me. Dumping e-waste seems a bit of a stretch.

daneel_w 4y ago
> ... and the quality always surprised me. Why did the quality surprise you? Either you had some presumptions because everyone who ever spent money there - in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components - know what a gamble it can be and are talking about it, or you have experienced this reality yourself but for some reason want to tone it down. Which is it?
- thrown_22 4y ago
  I keep hearing how terrible components from China are. High reputation sellers on the site are great, and I say this having spend around $100k in electronics for various projects. By comparison getting the parts locally usually means having to talk to someone who bought them from the same place and is just charging you extra for having a postal address in the same country.
- licebmi__at__ 4y ago
  Or maybe because you’re used to higher prices and when you find a product on a fraction of the price you obviously consider that quality might be lesser. So it’s surprising when the quality is comparable to the (sometimes much more) expensive product.
- dncornholio 4y ago
  Because I expected nothing and I got some real value out of my purchases. Everything from decorative items to electronics. I expected nothing, but got good value out of those purchases.

vdfs 4y ago

> AliExpress, BangGood, GearBest That's not always right, I did get a lot of things from Amazon thinking it's quality stuff that turn out to be just the same thing AliExpress sell with a nice white label and more markups. For example, i got a couple of Anker USB-C hubs, but recently story here show that many hubs are made by same manufacturer who offer whitelabeling

dncornholio 4y ago
That's the problem. Western companies are putting their logo on these cheap products. We are the problem, not China. On Amazon you can find the same exact same USB hub, for anything between 20 and 80 dollar. Exact same electronics.
- igravious 4y ago
  [flagged]
daneel_w 4y ago
eBay and Amazon are also outlets for the same Chinese goods.
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
It's been several years that the stuff from AliExpress is sold on Amazon and eBay; sometimes you can tell straight away, sometimes you need to go deeper. I'd say it's quite difficult to buy quality stuff from Amazon today. I bookmarked a few sellers I bought things from in the past but as for new sellers it's a lottery.

Dawnyhf5 4y ago

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

yep, there's a great book "Poorly made in china" ( https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 ) that explains how the do it... It's basically making a deal, and them replacing the components until you notice, then making you pay more for more expensive components, even though the more expensive ones were in the original deal. Sometimes also replacing key components, because someone from the factory tought that they were 'better' (=cheaper for the company)

KingOfCoders 4y ago
They learned that from outsourcing companies. Replacing people with less-experienced ones until you notice, then let you pay for additional people, or QA, or project management.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Yep, plus additional tactics, like waiting for the importer (of chinese goods to eg. USA) to get a huge deal, and then raising the price, because the importer has to deliver the goods in a relatively short term, and there's no time to change the supplier. Also (in the case from the book - cosmetics) a lot of questionable health/hygine practices.

Barrin92 4y ago

I've ordered considerable amounts of stuff rom AliExpress and while it's true that you need to exercise some caution I wouldn't call issues substantial. Also this isn't really about dumping e-waste on foreigners, China's business culture, in particular informal markets always play fast and loose, including domestically. Gotta have a little bit of an instinct who you can buy from.

Freak_NL 4y ago
For some things AliExpress can hardly be beat, and when a small cheap part bought there repairs a much more complex appliance here, it can, counter-intuitively, even be the most sustainable thing to do. It does take some getting used to the platform. > […] including domestically. That's the key thing to understand. This isn't about dumping e-waste on foreigners specifically, it's just capitalism at its most unregulated and the same crap you can buy from AliExpress the Chinese can buy too on Taobao.
- simonh 4y ago
  Right, the problem in China is lack of regulation and weak rule of law. So much for 'Strong Governance'.
daneel_w 4y ago
>... and while it's true that you need to exercise some caution I wouldn't call issues substantial. If it wasn't substantial you wouldn't need to exercise caution. I, too, have bought considerable amounts of stuff from DX, AliX, from Chinese vendors on eBay etc., and it's almost always a gamble, in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components.
- GTP 4y ago
  > in particular when it comes to electronics and electronic components. I have the opposite stance. I buy components nearly entirely on Aliexpress, as it turns out that on Amazon you get the exact same stuff, with the difference that the shipping might be faster (but not always) and the price is much higher.

trasz 4y ago

daneel_w 4y ago
I'm neither American nor a snowflake. I know the gamble, and for my personal account and expenses I'm OK with it. But I'm not OK with it being a systemic and calculated abuse.

baybal2 4y ago