3 ms·

Token specifically labeled elves as fair skinned. Why divert from the source material and change that?

morelisp 4y ago
Why is this the thing that matters to you rather than the legendarium's real foundations of divinity, creation, power, and temptation?
- karencarits 4y ago
  Well, if I recall correctly, the elves appeared long before the sun was created and are attracted to the night and the moon (when it appeared) and the stars. The sun is important for humans and the first sunrise was in a sense a sign that the ages of elves were over. In my mind, at least, the elves' had skin that resembled moonlight Edit: See e.g., The Silmarillion, ch. 11: "for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"
  - morelisp 4y ago
    You don't recall correctly; elves awoke to only stars. Both the sun and the moon come at the same time, much later. It's true the elves preferred the moon but I don't recall any explicit reason for this; I'd interpret it as part of the overarching theme that elves are more staid, less visibly intense, than men in general. Which is all to say - I don't see any relationship with skin color.
    - karencarits 4y ago
      You are right about the stars and my statement was unclear. The elves awoke as Varda made new and brighter stars, and it is stated that "their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight" When looking in the Silmarillion, it seems that they primarilly loved the stars and aspecific preference forthe moon is not mentioned. However, the moon came first (as the elves, compared to the humans) and traveled over the sky several times before the sun first appeared; "Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight [...] Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east, when the vessel of Arien was made ready" and "the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory" Why it matters? So, in my opinion, that the elves may be fair or perhaps pale in the skin makes sence symbolically due to their relationship to the night and the stars (and perhaps the moon). Also, in humans, there tends to be a relationship between the sun exposure of an area and skin color but I don't think we know how this affect elves (how their bodies work, some born before the sun was created, living for very long time, etc.)
      - morelisp 4y ago
        So first, your last paragraph really does feel like some kind of post hoc reasoning - "elves should be pale and elves like the moon, ergo elves are pale because of their relationship to the moon"? I don't get the logic. (I mean, they're obviously not following or even based in any kind of biological laws here.) But also - orcs also hate sunlight, yet have darker skin. And harfoots have darker skin but prefer the sun. (And trolls also prefer the moon, for different reasons.) So even trying to find some thematic association within Tolkien... it's just not there.
- brigandish 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you got from someone directly responds to a question about a specific thing to this is the only thing you care about, other than making a huge presumption.

Why is this the thing that matters to you rather than the legendarium's real foundations of divinity, creation, power, and temptation?

karencarits 4y ago
Well, if I recall correctly, the elves appeared long before the sun was created and are attracted to the night and the moon (when it appeared) and the stars. The sun is important for humans and the first sunrise was in a sense a sign that the ages of elves were over. In my mind, at least, the elves' had skin that resembled moonlight Edit: See e.g., The Silmarillion, ch. 11: "for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory"
- morelisp 4y ago
  You don't recall correctly; elves awoke to only stars. Both the sun and the moon come at the same time, much later. It's true the elves preferred the moon but I don't recall any explicit reason for this; I'd interpret it as part of the overarching theme that elves are more staid, less visibly intense, than men in general. Which is all to say - I don't see any relationship with skin color.
  - karencarits 4y ago
    You are right about the stars and my statement was unclear. The elves awoke as Varda made new and brighter stars, and it is stated that "their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight" When looking in the Silmarillion, it seems that they primarilly loved the stars and aspecific preference forthe moon is not mentioned. However, the moon came first (as the elves, compared to the humans) and traveled over the sky several times before the sun first appeared; "Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight [...] Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east, when the vessel of Arien was made ready" and "the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory" Why it matters? So, in my opinion, that the elves may be fair or perhaps pale in the skin makes sence symbolically due to their relationship to the night and the stars (and perhaps the moon). Also, in humans, there tends to be a relationship between the sun exposure of an area and skin color but I don't think we know how this affect elves (how their bodies work, some born before the sun was created, living for very long time, etc.)
    - morelisp 4y ago
      So first, your last paragraph really does feel like some kind of post hoc reasoning - "elves should be pale and elves like the moon, ergo elves are pale because of their relationship to the moon"? I don't get the logic. (I mean, they're obviously not following or even based in any kind of biological laws here.) But also - orcs also hate sunlight, yet have darker skin. And harfoots have darker skin but prefer the sun. (And trolls also prefer the moon, for different reasons.) So even trying to find some thematic association within Tolkien... it's just not there.
brigandish 4y ago
I'm not sure how you got from someone directly responds to a question about a specific thing to this is the only thing you care about, other than making a huge presumption.