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> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts introverts like me, and I do suspect we are the majority (but I have only anecdata for that). > I know that "the office" is a bad place for a lot of people. [...] But shouldn't we rather work on fixing those things instead of making them bearable by just turning off a camera in a Zoom meeting? Things have gotten worse and worse around the office. Small one- or few-person offices gave way to cubicles, which gave way to open-plan offices, which gave way to open-plan seat-lottery not-even-your-own-desk offices. No amount of pushback changed this direction in the slightest. Meanwhile noise and interruptions got worse and worse, where in my private office people knocked politely before entering or were kept out by the DND sign, nowadays the seat lottery puts me next to a loudmouthed marketing phone-drone, who when not screaming into the mic drones on about his awesome sales statistics and his new yacht. At least the boss can't easily walk over anymore and breathe down my neck because the seat lottery put him somewhere else usually. Any and all things that have been tried to fix this are band-aids and lip-service. It only got worse and worse. WFH is great, finally a step in the right direction. I do have no sympathy for the extroverts, because they got us into the aforementioned mess.

samuel_backend 4y ago
Honestly, I feel this is a bit of a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things. And I am downright insulted by the last sentence to be frank. Blaming shitty management on extroverted techies. Are you sure about that?
- throwaway294566 4y ago
  Yes, I am sure that extroverts are to blame. But not only extroverted techies. Management is almost 100% extroverts. Extroverted techies went along, repeating the party line of "watercooler talk makes us cooperate more", "I like the new open floorplan, so social" and "interruptions aren't that bad, learn to multitask and get some headphones". For examples, just read some HN about open floorplans. The introverted techs, being introverts, were less heard and mostly had no say anyways. Extroverted management and techs lacked any interest and necessary empathy to understand them. Whats more, snark and derision for the introverts, not only behind closed doors. HR and management slides praised the new culture of constant social interaction and suggested the rest should just socialize more and learn to multitask and be outgoing. Be more extroverted like us, less like you. Same from the extroverted techies, e.g. here on HN. Introverts just weren't accepted and were not heard. So yes, I think snark is warranted and the last sentence is fair play. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, where extroverts don't like WFH, I do only treat extroverts with the same contempt I was treated with.
- mirchibajji 4y ago
  Sorry you see it this way. I agree with a lot of what the parent said. The post started the black-and-white framing - the current situation is bad, and we need to fix it. A popular three wishes joke goes: "Three men are stranded on a desert island, when a bottle washes up on the shore. When they uncork the bottle, a genie appears and offers three wishes. The first wishes to be taken to Paris. The genie snaps his fingers, and the man suddenly finds himself standing in front of the Eiffel Tower. The second man wishes that he were in Hollywood, and with a snap of the genie's fingers, he finds himself on a Tinseltown movie set. The third man, now alone on the island, looks around and says, "I wish my friends were back."[1] If you looking for different points of view, I would urge you to look past the trigger words. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wishes_joke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wishes_joke
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I've never seen anything that so perfectly encapsulates my feelings about this whole return to office thing.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  > a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things Seems like a perfect response to your original post, then.
  - samuel_backend 4y ago
    Haha, I really tried to make it clear that the post just is my opinion and I don't claim to be "right" about any of those things. The reason it's so obscenely long is just that, I wanted to elaborate on how these things appear to me. I really tried not to fall into "WFH is shit and everyone who likes it is wrong". I mean even the title basically asks for input. And yes sure, in one or two places I phrased things bluntly but always tried to make it clear that it's how it seems to me and not reproaching anyone for their preferences.
- davidgerard 4y ago
  You're demanding we waste our lives and energy to entertain you in the office. What did you expect?
- fundad 4y ago
  It was harsh but anyone attached to the status quo shouldn’t be sensitive to snark from the fringe that doesn’t like it. People attached to the status quo always win.
lytefm 4y ago
While a bit snarky, this points in the right direction. OP simply seems to be more extroverted, enjoying personal interaction with colleagues more than their introverted peers. At least from my experience at work + university, IT attracts substantially more introverts. In addition, family life/ living situation can make a huge dent. Think being single + living in a shared flat in the center vs being married living in a house 1h+ commute away from the office.
un3n 4y ago
Well said, I completely agree.

samuel_backend 4y ago

Honestly, I feel this is a bit of a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things. And I am downright insulted by the last sentence to be frank. Blaming shitty management on extroverted techies. Are you sure about that?

throwaway294566 4y ago
Yes, I am sure that extroverts are to blame. But not only extroverted techies. Management is almost 100% extroverts. Extroverted techies went along, repeating the party line of "watercooler talk makes us cooperate more", "I like the new open floorplan, so social" and "interruptions aren't that bad, learn to multitask and get some headphones". For examples, just read some HN about open floorplans. The introverted techs, being introverts, were less heard and mostly had no say anyways. Extroverted management and techs lacked any interest and necessary empathy to understand them. Whats more, snark and derision for the introverts, not only behind closed doors. HR and management slides praised the new culture of constant social interaction and suggested the rest should just socialize more and learn to multitask and be outgoing. Be more extroverted like us, less like you. Same from the extroverted techies, e.g. here on HN. Introverts just weren't accepted and were not heard. So yes, I think snark is warranted and the last sentence is fair play. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, where extroverts don't like WFH, I do only treat extroverts with the same contempt I was treated with.
mirchibajji 4y ago
Sorry you see it this way. I agree with a lot of what the parent said. The post started the black-and-white framing - the current situation is bad, and we need to fix it. A popular three wishes joke goes: "Three men are stranded on a desert island, when a bottle washes up on the shore. When they uncork the bottle, a genie appears and offers three wishes. The first wishes to be taken to Paris. The genie snaps his fingers, and the man suddenly finds himself standing in front of the Eiffel Tower. The second man wishes that he were in Hollywood, and with a snap of the genie's fingers, he finds himself on a Tinseltown movie set. The third man, now alone on the island, looks around and says, "I wish my friends were back."[1] If you looking for different points of view, I would urge you to look past the trigger words. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wishes_joke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wishes_joke
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  I've never seen anything that so perfectly encapsulates my feelings about this whole return to office thing.
commandlinefan 4y ago
> a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things Seems like a perfect response to your original post, then.
- samuel_backend 4y ago
  Haha, I really tried to make it clear that the post just is my opinion and I don't claim to be "right" about any of those things. The reason it's so obscenely long is just that, I wanted to elaborate on how these things appear to me. I really tried not to fall into "WFH is shit and everyone who likes it is wrong". I mean even the title basically asks for input. And yes sure, in one or two places I phrased things bluntly but always tried to make it clear that it's how it seems to me and not reproaching anyone for their preferences.
davidgerard 4y ago
You're demanding we waste our lives and energy to entertain you in the office. What did you expect?
fundad 4y ago
It was harsh but anyone attached to the status quo shouldn’t be sensitive to snark from the fringe that doesn’t like it. People attached to the status quo always win.

lytefm 4y ago

While a bit snarky, this points in the right direction. OP simply seems to be more extroverted, enjoying personal interaction with colleagues more than their introverted peers. At least from my experience at work + university, IT attracts substantially more introverts. In addition, family life/ living situation can make a huge dent. Think being single + living in a shared flat in the center vs being married living in a house 1h+ commute away from the office.

un3n 4y ago

Well said, I completely agree.