9 ms·

You'd have to be pretty dumb to be an employee at a startup because of the money: bad hours, lots of risk, bad pay and lots of personal confrontation.

achompas 15y ago
Max, are you trolling here? This kinda smells like trolling, because I don't think you'd be the type to generalize across all startups like this.
- maxklein 15y ago
  It's my opinion. Working at a startup, you're underpaid and overworked for very little financial benefit.
  - moocow01 15y ago
    Ill second that - skip the startups and work for yourself instead if at all possible
    - drx 15y ago
      I have friends who love startups but would never start one. It's not for everyone.
      - moocow01 15y ago
        Agreed - if someone enjoys their startup life, more power to them in that there is nothing that pays better than enjoying your situation. For someone who is looking at it as a financial play but sitting in a startup that is grinding them down to nothing, they are most likely making an extremely bad investment.
  - drusenko 15y ago
    Obviously, that's true of some startups, but very wrong in others. Working at Weebly, you have similar hours to BigCo (although you'll be 10x more productive), paid market rate (or slightly above), and receive your fair share of the outcome. You also get to work with a fun group of people who are obsessed with being productive, and not much else. Maybe we're the exception, but we don't care if you're a 9-5 type of person, if you're very productive during those hours. Working at a startup doesn't have to be shit, just because some startups are.
  - rdouble 15y ago
    Maybe in the dot com era. Venture backed startups nowadays pay better than a lot of typical programming jobs.
  - achompas 15y ago
    That's fine, I'm just surprised you'd make such a sweeping generalization. Not all BigCos are the same--why would all startups be the same? I'm not a startup cheerleader -- "come change the world!" is the most overused pitch line ever -- but there are tons of examples (37signals, some YC teams, some of the larger NY startups) countering this generalization.
- AznHisoka 15y ago
  Why would he be trolling? Sounds like the general truth to me. I'd accuse him of trolling if he said the opposite
  - achompas 15y ago
    You really think this would be true across a spectrum of companies with different funding situations, different revenue streams, and different user bases?
- dkd903 15y ago
  Max is right. As an employee, Startups do beat the shit out of you and if the startup shuts down after a year, you gotta begin all over again from where you started a year back.
  - jaequery 15y ago
    but starting all over again is the fun part
- nekitamo 15y ago
  Not trolling at all. Some of us have the opinion that you have to be a fool to work at a startup.
  - achompas 15y ago
    I don't get this sentiment--it completely ignores the differences between mature and fledgling startups. It's clearly not all unicorns and cupcakes, but there's a difference between "work for us at 2/3rds market plus 1%" and "we're VC-backed, work for us at market and get health plus other nice perks." Startups are not uniform.
paulhauggis 15y ago
exactly! You take almost as much risk and work just as many hours as when you work for yourself. Except you own very little in equity (as a developer, usually less than 10%) and you have no control over what happens with the company (usually when VC takes over, they will be trying to make an ROI asap at the expense of any long-term plans).
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  10%? I think it is more in the lines of 3% as an early employee and it goes down from there.
  - velshin 15y ago
    Try 0.1% to 3% for employee # < 10.
spif 15y ago
That's an incorrect overgeneralization. Not all startups are alike, as I'm sure you know. If the employees get screwed over, then it doesn't sound like they are valued. I see many startups where the employees are super valued assets, get a decent salary AND they do what they love.
- byoung2 15y ago
  I work at an early stage startup, and I absolutely love what I do, who I work for/with, and I make a lot of money. I have stock options, but it's just icing on the cake.
rjurney 15y ago
By those standards, you'd have to be even dumber to be a founder: bad hours, lots of risk, bad pay and lots of stress. Most good founders were employees at hot startups, where they learned what to do and joined 'networks of success.'
- tlb 15y ago
  Less than "most" good founders were employees at hot startups. I base this on a good deal of data.
  - rjurney 15y ago
    Post it. I have data to the contrary.
    - zach 15y ago
      Do you have as many data points as Trevor does, though? Just curious since this would be impressive in itself.
      - rjurney 15y ago
        Didn't know that was Trevor, but I do have hard data on this. I took the time to collect it for the Atlanta security cluster. Most Y Combinator founders are young, so sample bias is likely present. Then again, Atlanta sucks, so only old fuckers start companies. :)
  - rjurney 15y ago
    Evidence that "most" good founders were employees at hot startups, and that most important companies that generate the most wealth occur in 'networks of success': https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/Atlanta-Security-Startup-Founders-Network.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/Atlanta-S... https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/fairchild+silicon+valley+genealogy+(1).jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/fairchild... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia#Membership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia#Membership

achompas 15y ago

Max, are you trolling here? This kinda smells like trolling, because I don't think you'd be the type to generalize across all startups like this.

maxklein 15y ago
It's my opinion. Working at a startup, you're underpaid and overworked for very little financial benefit.
- moocow01 15y ago
  Ill second that - skip the startups and work for yourself instead if at all possible
  - drx 15y ago
    I have friends who love startups but would never start one. It's not for everyone.
    - moocow01 15y ago
      Agreed - if someone enjoys their startup life, more power to them in that there is nothing that pays better than enjoying your situation. For someone who is looking at it as a financial play but sitting in a startup that is grinding them down to nothing, they are most likely making an extremely bad investment.
- drusenko 15y ago
  Obviously, that's true of some startups, but very wrong in others. Working at Weebly, you have similar hours to BigCo (although you'll be 10x more productive), paid market rate (or slightly above), and receive your fair share of the outcome. You also get to work with a fun group of people who are obsessed with being productive, and not much else. Maybe we're the exception, but we don't care if you're a 9-5 type of person, if you're very productive during those hours. Working at a startup doesn't have to be shit, just because some startups are.
- rdouble 15y ago
  Maybe in the dot com era. Venture backed startups nowadays pay better than a lot of typical programming jobs.
- achompas 15y ago
  That's fine, I'm just surprised you'd make such a sweeping generalization. Not all BigCos are the same--why would all startups be the same? I'm not a startup cheerleader -- "come change the world!" is the most overused pitch line ever -- but there are tons of examples (37signals, some YC teams, some of the larger NY startups) countering this generalization.
AznHisoka 15y ago
Why would he be trolling? Sounds like the general truth to me. I'd accuse him of trolling if he said the opposite
- achompas 15y ago
  You really think this would be true across a spectrum of companies with different funding situations, different revenue streams, and different user bases?
dkd903 15y ago
Max is right. As an employee, Startups do beat the shit out of you and if the startup shuts down after a year, you gotta begin all over again from where you started a year back.
- jaequery 15y ago
  but starting all over again is the fun part
nekitamo 15y ago
Not trolling at all. Some of us have the opinion that you have to be a fool to work at a startup.
- achompas 15y ago
  I don't get this sentiment--it completely ignores the differences between mature and fledgling startups. It's clearly not all unicorns and cupcakes, but there's a difference between "work for us at 2/3rds market plus 1%" and "we're VC-backed, work for us at market and get health plus other nice perks." Startups are not uniform.

paulhauggis 15y ago

exactly! You take almost as much risk and work just as many hours as when you work for yourself. Except you own very little in equity (as a developer, usually less than 10%) and you have no control over what happens with the company (usually when VC takes over, they will be trying to make an ROI asap at the expense of any long-term plans).

rokhayakebe 15y ago
10%? I think it is more in the lines of 3% as an early employee and it goes down from there.
- velshin 15y ago
  Try 0.1% to 3% for employee # < 10.

spif 15y ago

That's an incorrect overgeneralization. Not all startups are alike, as I'm sure you know. If the employees get screwed over, then it doesn't sound like they are valued. I see many startups where the employees are super valued assets, get a decent salary AND they do what they love.

byoung2 15y ago
I work at an early stage startup, and I absolutely love what I do, who I work for/with, and I make a lot of money. I have stock options, but it's just icing on the cake.

rjurney 15y ago

By those standards, you'd have to be even dumber to be a founder: bad hours, lots of risk, bad pay and lots of stress. Most good founders were employees at hot startups, where they learned what to do and joined 'networks of success.'

tlb 15y ago
Less than "most" good founders were employees at hot startups. I base this on a good deal of data.
- rjurney 15y ago
  Post it. I have data to the contrary.
  - zach 15y ago
    Do you have as many data points as Trevor does, though? Just curious since this would be impressive in itself.
    - rjurney 15y ago
      Didn't know that was Trevor, but I do have hard data on this. I took the time to collect it for the Atlanta security cluster. Most Y Combinator founders are young, so sample bias is likely present. Then again, Atlanta sucks, so only old fuckers start companies. :)
- rjurney 15y ago
  Evidence that "most" good founders were employees at hot startups, and that most important companies that generate the most wealth occur in 'networks of success': https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/Atlanta-Security-Startup-Founders-Network.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/Atlanta-S... https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/fairchild+silicon+valley+genealogy+(1).jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/rjurney_public_web/images/fairchild... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia#Membership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia#Membership