6 ms·

> Planes spend a lot of time in areas that aren't populate no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas. specifically near major airports, and the Wi

> Planes spend a lot of time in areas that aren't populate no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas. specifically near major airports, and the WiFi needs to work on the ground as well.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
Yet again, we hit the "that depends entirely on where you live". On Vancouver Island, planes spend most of their time nowhere near populated areas, but between populated areas. Not that you'd need internet on those flights, but let's also not pretend there's only one type of plane flying one type of route with one type of customer in one type of setting (or even only one of those restrictions).
- shaklee3 4y ago
  I've done route planning for internet service. the vast, vast majority of the time they're in busy areas. you're talking about outliers.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    You've done route planning for internet service, or route planning for US/Canada domestic in-flight internet service? Because there's a lot of nothing in between successive towns in rural Canada and the US.
    - shaklee3 4y ago
      I've done route planning for satellite internet for domestic flights. airplanes tend to take the exact same paths over heavily concentrated areas, and the hubs have a tremendous amount of demand around them. you can verify this by paying for flightaware data and looking at historical data by airline. even without ground traffic consider 3 planes in the same beam need to serve ~500 people. airlines bank on you not using it or charging a lot to keep the numbers down. JetBlue does it for free by subsidizing through the ticket price since people pay a premium for the name.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    This is for general aviation, not airlines.
    - shaklee3 4y ago
      same thing applies since they share the same airports. they'll give these planes higher priority because of the cost, but it's not enough to make an entire business from. they need the residential service to be profitable.
      - diebeforei485 4y ago
        No, not always. Elon Musk flies into KHHR and KBRO regularly for SpaceX and these airports don't have much commercial service if any.
      - diebeforei485 4y ago
        Certainly there are some shared airports. But private jets at New York fly into Teterboro, and most private jets in Los Angeles fly into Van Nuys. https://apple.news/AKfH3OT3dRI2KyES0F0KFig https://apple.news/AKfH3OT3dRI2KyES0F0KFig
hunter2_ 4y ago
Why can't a plane switch to LTE or some proprietary airport base station while on the ground?
- shaklee3 4y ago
  because then they have to make agreements with cell providers and put special antennas on for that one use case
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  one reason is that lte providers mostly don't point antennas up.
foolfoolz 4y ago
the wifi does not need to work on the ground. if an airline says they have onboard wifi and you’re using base station data on the ground 95% of people won’t have a problem
- shaklee3 4y ago
  it does, and people use it today for that. JetBlue has a huge amount of usage on the ground.
mlindner 4y ago
> no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas. specifically near major airports, and the WiFi needs to work on the ground as well. Except most of a passenger's time in an aircraft isn't spent sitting on the ground (if it is, something's gone wrong) and they can use cell phones and wifi hotspots in such locations anyway. Further, major airports aren't _populated_. People don't live there and airports are large enough they fill up a significant fraction of a starlink cell.
- shaklee3 4y ago
  I'm not going to argue about this. go look up flight aware data. when a given airline has a dozen or so planes in the same beam because of a hub, it creates massive congestion. people use the internet whether they're on the ground or not. it certainly uses up a giant portion of a starlink cell if they were ever to land an airline.
hoseja 4y ago
And you can use mobile networks/airport wifi there.
modeless 4y ago
> > Planes spend a lot of time in areas that aren't populated > no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas These statements are not mutually exclusive. Even if planes aren't spending an absolute majority of their time in unpopulated areas, it's still a lot of time compared to the 0% that a fixed terminal in a suburb would spend. Starlink needs paying customers in those unpopulated areas, even if they are only there some of the time. And the customers need Starlink too, even more than rural customers, many of whom could in theory be served by fixed wireless or something; that's not a possibility for planes over the poles or what have you.

> Planes spend a lot of time in areas that aren't populate no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas. specifically near major airports, and the WiFi needs to work on the ground as well.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

Yet again, we hit the "that depends entirely on where you live". On Vancouver Island, planes spend most of their time nowhere near populated areas, but between populated areas. Not that you'd need internet on those flights, but let's also not pretend there's only one type of plane flying one type of route with one type of customer in one type of setting (or even only one of those restrictions).

shaklee3 4y ago
I've done route planning for internet service. the vast, vast majority of the time they're in busy areas. you're talking about outliers.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  You've done route planning for internet service, or route planning for US/Canada domestic in-flight internet service? Because there's a lot of nothing in between successive towns in rural Canada and the US.
  - shaklee3 4y ago
    I've done route planning for satellite internet for domestic flights. airplanes tend to take the exact same paths over heavily concentrated areas, and the hubs have a tremendous amount of demand around them. you can verify this by paying for flightaware data and looking at historical data by airline. even without ground traffic consider 3 planes in the same beam need to serve ~500 people. airlines bank on you not using it or charging a lot to keep the numbers down. JetBlue does it for free by subsidizing through the ticket price since people pay a premium for the name.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  This is for general aviation, not airlines.
  - shaklee3 4y ago
    same thing applies since they share the same airports. they'll give these planes higher priority because of the cost, but it's not enough to make an entire business from. they need the residential service to be profitable.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      No, not always. Elon Musk flies into KHHR and KBRO regularly for SpaceX and these airports don't have much commercial service if any.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Certainly there are some shared airports. But private jets at New York fly into Teterboro, and most private jets in Los Angeles fly into Van Nuys. https://apple.news/AKfH3OT3dRI2KyES0F0KFig https://apple.news/AKfH3OT3dRI2KyES0F0KFig

hunter2_ 4y ago

Why can't a plane switch to LTE or some proprietary airport base station while on the ground?

shaklee3 4y ago
because then they have to make agreements with cell providers and put special antennas on for that one use case
adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
one reason is that lte providers mostly don't point antennas up.

foolfoolz 4y ago

the wifi does not need to work on the ground. if an airline says they have onboard wifi and you’re using base station data on the ground 95% of people won’t have a problem

shaklee3 4y ago
it does, and people use it today for that. JetBlue has a huge amount of usage on the ground.

mlindner 4y ago

> no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas. specifically near major airports, and the WiFi needs to work on the ground as well. Except most of a passenger's time in an aircraft isn't spent sitting on the ground (if it is, something's gone wrong) and they can use cell phones and wifi hotspots in such locations anyway. Further, major airports aren't _populated_. People don't live there and airports are large enough they fill up a significant fraction of a starlink cell.

shaklee3 4y ago
I'm not going to argue about this. go look up flight aware data. when a given airline has a dozen or so planes in the same beam because of a hub, it creates massive congestion. people use the internet whether they're on the ground or not. it certainly uses up a giant portion of a starlink cell if they were ever to land an airline.

hoseja 4y ago

And you can use mobile networks/airport wifi there.

modeless 4y ago

> > Planes spend a lot of time in areas that aren't populated > no, planes spend most of their time in populated areas These statements are not mutually exclusive. Even if planes aren't spending an absolute majority of their time in unpopulated areas, it's still a lot of time compared to the 0% that a fixed terminal in a suburb would spend. Starlink needs paying customers in those unpopulated areas, even if they are only there some of the time. And the customers need Starlink too, even more than rural customers, many of whom could in theory be served by fixed wireless or something; that's not a possibility for planes over the poles or what have you.