5 ms·

Teaching qualifications were BS to begin with. For most subjects, having a degree in a subject actually correlates terribly with someone's ability to teach it.

Teaching qualifications were BS to begin with. For most subjects, having a degree in a subject actually correlates terribly with someone's ability to teach it. These restrictions had more to do with liability and protecting jobs than anything else.

collegeburner 4y ago
facts we had teachers teaching the same stuff 100 years ago without this BS degree requirement and a much simpler certificate program. and it's not like we're getting better outcomes per dollar so clearly it's not helping that much. nobody needs a bachelors to teach freaking high school english.
- debacle 4y ago
  While I mostly agree with you, if you look at public vs private schools, the divide in education is not in STEM. It is in history and "English" (grammar, writing, speaking). And while private schools are doubling down on those things, public schools are reducing the focus on grammar, spelling, writing, and speaking, and changing what it means to teach "history."
  - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
    Are private schools able to attract talented History and English teachers? It could just be the circles I go in but I'm under the impression that the reasons that people go into teaching those subjects are generally better aligned with teaching the public i.e. if you're teaching rich kids with engaged parents then you're optimizing diminishing returns while a little literacy can go a really long way in an underserved community.
    - debacle 4y ago
      The sociological aspects of teaching are becoming more demanding over time, which draws teachers to private schools despite the generally lower pay.
      - devilbunny 4y ago
        Private schools often discount tuition for the children of their teachers, sometimes substantially. I knew more than a few teachers at my high school who taught until they got pregnant with their first child, quit until the youngest was in elementary, then went back to teaching - both to have something to do and to defray the cost of tuition. And while the students and parents may not be perfect gems, they're a lot less likely to threaten actual physical harm.
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    honestly english class is mostly a waste of time. idk about everyone i know who is very good with the language picked it up from extensive reading starting at an early age, not from cramming in book reports. i completely agree with focusing more on those things just i think the general reading level of American kids going into high school is way too low. there is literally 0 reason why someone entering 6th grade shouldn't be able to read literally any english language text and comprehend it. and yeah history in public schools sucks. 100 years ago it was taught with a bit more of the "great man" emphasis, now it's a lot about social forces, the experience of the average person at the time. social forces are an important part of history but i have looked at old curricula vs new ones and they are so much more interesting. regardless, history should be taught by lecture paired with reading other info from the time (primary sources, more detailed descriptions of things mentioned etc) not by the godforsaken mess of a subject it is now.
- legitster 4y ago
  An underrated thing about schooling 100 years ago was that it was one of the only professions a women could respectfully do. So you ended up having genius women being just an schoolhouse teacher.
weakfish 4y ago
Hard disagree. My partner is an educator with a degree in it, and a lot of the degree is the important “how to teach” as much if not more than the actual content they’re teaching. It’s evident by any research professor, for example, who is sent to teach a course that just knowing the subject doesn’t mean they can adequately communicate or educate on it.
- nverno 4y ago
  If additional education, in general, made teachers significantly more effective, it should be fairly easy to measure that outcome. But, it seems many people have tried, and continue to try, but have failed to reach much of a consensus [1]. Just reading through a few of the first search results, some find negative effects, some positive, but nothing particularly significant afaict. Personally, I liked teachers that were enthusiastic about their subject matter more than anything else. Learning how to teach must be important, but someone that has enthusiasm and a skillset could surely pick that up as they go. 1. https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherprep1_20170301_2.pdf https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherpr...
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    Measuring the outcomes of primary/secondary education is not easy. The purpose of such education is not giving kids measurable skills but preparing them for their lives as citizens. You can't measure that with standardized tests. You must follow the kids over their lives and see how they contribute to the society.
    - nverno 4y ago
      What does it mean 'preparing them for their lives as citizens'? School is for learning reading, writing, and arithmetic. Learning how to be part of society is something everyone learns in the theater of life, not from school teachers specifically (as much from school teachers as from all the other important people in their life).
      - 4y ago
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Most states want teachers who went through education programs which as -mainly- education and psychology classes. Sure some states with shortages are tryign to make up for that shortage with subject matter experts rather than education pros, but that's what they have to work with.

collegeburner 4y ago

facts we had teachers teaching the same stuff 100 years ago without this BS degree requirement and a much simpler certificate program. and it's not like we're getting better outcomes per dollar so clearly it's not helping that much. nobody needs a bachelors to teach freaking high school english.

debacle 4y ago
While I mostly agree with you, if you look at public vs private schools, the divide in education is not in STEM. It is in history and "English" (grammar, writing, speaking). And while private schools are doubling down on those things, public schools are reducing the focus on grammar, spelling, writing, and speaking, and changing what it means to teach "history."
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  Are private schools able to attract talented History and English teachers? It could just be the circles I go in but I'm under the impression that the reasons that people go into teaching those subjects are generally better aligned with teaching the public i.e. if you're teaching rich kids with engaged parents then you're optimizing diminishing returns while a little literacy can go a really long way in an underserved community.
  - debacle 4y ago
    The sociological aspects of teaching are becoming more demanding over time, which draws teachers to private schools despite the generally lower pay.
    - devilbunny 4y ago
      Private schools often discount tuition for the children of their teachers, sometimes substantially. I knew more than a few teachers at my high school who taught until they got pregnant with their first child, quit until the youngest was in elementary, then went back to teaching - both to have something to do and to defray the cost of tuition. And while the students and parents may not be perfect gems, they're a lot less likely to threaten actual physical harm.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  honestly english class is mostly a waste of time. idk about everyone i know who is very good with the language picked it up from extensive reading starting at an early age, not from cramming in book reports. i completely agree with focusing more on those things just i think the general reading level of American kids going into high school is way too low. there is literally 0 reason why someone entering 6th grade shouldn't be able to read literally any english language text and comprehend it. and yeah history in public schools sucks. 100 years ago it was taught with a bit more of the "great man" emphasis, now it's a lot about social forces, the experience of the average person at the time. social forces are an important part of history but i have looked at old curricula vs new ones and they are so much more interesting. regardless, history should be taught by lecture paired with reading other info from the time (primary sources, more detailed descriptions of things mentioned etc) not by the godforsaken mess of a subject it is now.
legitster 4y ago
An underrated thing about schooling 100 years ago was that it was one of the only professions a women could respectfully do. So you ended up having genius women being just an schoolhouse teacher.

weakfish 4y ago

Hard disagree. My partner is an educator with a degree in it, and a lot of the degree is the important “how to teach” as much if not more than the actual content they’re teaching. It’s evident by any research professor, for example, who is sent to teach a course that just knowing the subject doesn’t mean they can adequately communicate or educate on it.

nverno 4y ago
If additional education, in general, made teachers significantly more effective, it should be fairly easy to measure that outcome. But, it seems many people have tried, and continue to try, but have failed to reach much of a consensus [1]. Just reading through a few of the first search results, some find negative effects, some positive, but nothing particularly significant afaict. Personally, I liked teachers that were enthusiastic about their subject matter more than anything else. Learning how to teach must be important, but someone that has enthusiasm and a skillset could surely pick that up as they go. 1. https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherprep1_20170301_2.pdf https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherpr...
- jltsiren 4y ago
  Measuring the outcomes of primary/secondary education is not easy. The purpose of such education is not giving kids measurable skills but preparing them for their lives as citizens. You can't measure that with standardized tests. You must follow the kids over their lives and see how they contribute to the society.
  - nverno 4y ago
    What does it mean 'preparing them for their lives as citizens'? School is for learning reading, writing, and arithmetic. Learning how to be part of society is something everyone learns in the theater of life, not from school teachers specifically (as much from school teachers as from all the other important people in their life).
    - 4y ago

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Most states want teachers who went through education programs which as -mainly- education and psychology classes. Sure some states with shortages are tryign to make up for that shortage with subject matter experts rather than education pros, but that's what they have to work with.