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Hmm that’s interesting. I wonder if the two systems produce equal outcomes into adulthood.

irrational 4y ago
I’m not certain about adulthood (I doubt they are equal - there are probably positives and negatives both ways), but one of my kids has a friend who is an only child. She spends most of her time by herself and her home is very quiet. When she first came to our house, which is constantly in commotion (in a good way), she was sort of shell shocked. She has gotten used to it over time.
nyokodo 4y ago
> equal outcomes How do you compare the outcome for a kid who never exists? People are an end in themselves before considering any outcomes.
- kotlin2 4y ago
  If people are an end to themselves, everyone would have as many kids as possible. Clearly some people believe people to be an end to themselves, but I doubt that opinion is held by the majority. My question about outcomes was specifically about those that exist.
  - irrational 4y ago
    I think what they mean is, every person is different and it is impossible to say how any individual would be if they had been raised in a large family instead of a small one, or vice versa.
    - kotlin2 4y ago
      I don't think so. "an end" means a goal. "People are an end", to me, means that the creation of people is the goal. This is a common belief in religions like Catholicism that are against contraception.
      - nyokodo 4y ago
        > "People are an end", to me, means that the creation of people is the goal. This is a common belief in religions like Catholicism that are against contraception. Catholics believe that the primary end of sex and marriage is procreation, albeit not ruling out secondary ends. That’s beside the point. People being an end in themselves means that before considering any outcomes of their lives their existence is good. E.g. if I have a kid who has Downs Syndrome their life is a fundamental good even though their outcome will probably be considerably worse than a healthy child. Many non-Catholics share this view. That does have implications for family size as it moves one’s attitude towards responsible generosity to having children rather than primarily considering the child a threat to or means to some other end.
morgtheborg 4y ago
I know that I come from a family of five and was starved for attention. My husband comes from a family of 2 and felt he always got attention when he wanted it. Like some of my strongest memories are of leaving notes for my Mom about how I felt neglected and was in <x> room waiting for her just to BE there with me. She'd last about ten minutes before she'd begin multi-tasking. Not because she was a bad mom but because she just had so. much. to do with five kids and a full-time job. If you're going to have a large family older kids have to take on some of the emotional labor or the younger kids are totally shafted.
- notch656a 4y ago
  It's interesting how opinions on this change depending on how it's phrased. Sometimes I see it phrased as older kids taking on some of the labor in what is perceived as maturity building activity that may serve them in adulthood. Others use a completely different phrase, calling it "parentification" and then call it child abuse or worse, believing it's better for the kids to all fight for the resource of the parent rather than share the burden with older children. I withhold a conclusion of what the results are. But it's funny to me to see how the opinions can be gamed based on how you frame it.
  - navane 4y ago
    A proffessional athlete was asked, in the context of a knockout tournament where different conpetitors had different waiting period between matches: "is it better to have more time and rest between the fights, or to have less time but more momentum?" She replied: "Whichever happens to you, you turn into a positive frame."
    - MrPatan 4y ago
      Or the 21st century version: Whichever happens to you, you turn it into a reason why you didn't succeed and you're not to blame.

I’m not certain about adulthood (I doubt they are equal - there are probably positives and negatives both ways), but one of my kids has a friend who is an only child. She spends most of her time by herself and her home is very quiet. When she first came to our house, which is constantly in commotion (in a good way), she was sort of shell shocked. She has gotten used to it over time.

nyokodo 4y ago

> equal outcomes How do you compare the outcome for a kid who never exists? People are an end in themselves before considering any outcomes.

kotlin2 4y ago
If people are an end to themselves, everyone would have as many kids as possible. Clearly some people believe people to be an end to themselves, but I doubt that opinion is held by the majority. My question about outcomes was specifically about those that exist.
- irrational 4y ago
  I think what they mean is, every person is different and it is impossible to say how any individual would be if they had been raised in a large family instead of a small one, or vice versa.
  - kotlin2 4y ago
    I don't think so. "an end" means a goal. "People are an end", to me, means that the creation of people is the goal. This is a common belief in religions like Catholicism that are against contraception.
    - nyokodo 4y ago
      > "People are an end", to me, means that the creation of people is the goal. This is a common belief in religions like Catholicism that are against contraception. Catholics believe that the primary end of sex and marriage is procreation, albeit not ruling out secondary ends. That’s beside the point. People being an end in themselves means that before considering any outcomes of their lives their existence is good. E.g. if I have a kid who has Downs Syndrome their life is a fundamental good even though their outcome will probably be considerably worse than a healthy child. Many non-Catholics share this view. That does have implications for family size as it moves one’s attitude towards responsible generosity to having children rather than primarily considering the child a threat to or means to some other end.

morgtheborg 4y ago

I know that I come from a family of five and was starved for attention. My husband comes from a family of 2 and felt he always got attention when he wanted it. Like some of my strongest memories are of leaving notes for my Mom about how I felt neglected and was in <x> room waiting for her just to BE there with me. She'd last about ten minutes before she'd begin multi-tasking. Not because she was a bad mom but because she just had so. much. to do with five kids and a full-time job. If you're going to have a large family older kids have to take on some of the emotional labor or the younger kids are totally shafted.

notch656a 4y ago
It's interesting how opinions on this change depending on how it's phrased. Sometimes I see it phrased as older kids taking on some of the labor in what is perceived as maturity building activity that may serve them in adulthood. Others use a completely different phrase, calling it "parentification" and then call it child abuse or worse, believing it's better for the kids to all fight for the resource of the parent rather than share the burden with older children. I withhold a conclusion of what the results are. But it's funny to me to see how the opinions can be gamed based on how you frame it.
- navane 4y ago
  A proffessional athlete was asked, in the context of a knockout tournament where different conpetitors had different waiting period between matches: "is it better to have more time and rest between the fights, or to have less time but more momentum?" She replied: "Whichever happens to you, you turn into a positive frame."
  - MrPatan 4y ago
    Or the 21st century version: Whichever happens to you, you turn it into a reason why you didn't succeed and you're not to blame.