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Hey just wanted to say that I really appreciate this comment and it's an opinion I haven't seen shared before even though in hindsight it's obvious. I personal

Hey just wanted to say that I really appreciate this comment and it's an opinion I haven't seen shared before even though in hindsight it's obvious. I personally have chosen not to have kids - one reason is doomer level but the other is time and independence. I have a dog that is a relatively (to kids) minor responsibility but in my day to day life feels like the biggest responsibility, I compare that to having a kid which I would say is a lot more and I wouldn't want to take on as I've already experienced a dog and that is as far as I'd go. But while you haven't changed my mind, you have negated a lot of my feelings towards a previously thought "lifelong responsibility"

popularrecluse 4y ago
Well another thought is that the only way to revert this so-called doomerist path is to choose to have and raise kids with empathy for others and with care towards the natural world they've inherited. Because the people who don't give a shit ain't going to stop having them.
- gday2020 4y ago
  Raising them with good values doesn't mean that they will keep those throughout their life, unfortunately. Quite risky to bet on that.
  - maroonblazer 4y ago
    I have no data to support this but I'm willing to bet that the likelihood they do keep those values is significantly greater than the likelihood that they don't. So, a very low risk bet.
sshine 4y ago
I've heard having a dog is like having a kid that never grows up. In some ways they're always more independent of a child. In some ways they never will be.
hattmall 4y ago
Having a dog is legitimately more than a kid 90% of the time if it's an indoor dog you treat like a kid. It's different, but constant and the dog never becomes self sufficient. It's also more challenging to travel with them.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  With 4 kids and a dog, I tell people this, but no one believes me. Dogs can absolutely be harder than kids a lot of the time.
  - ip26 4y ago
    Forgive me- four kids, but how many boys? My dogs can't even comprehend how to be as difficult as my boys.
    - D13Fd 4y ago
      One boy. But I’ve never had to spend 20 minutes chasing him to get him back in the house in the morning so he isn’t stuck outside in the cold all day.
- sam345 4y ago
  I'm sorry I have had both kids and dogs. Dogs are WAY easier and less expensive than kids. On the positive side, kids are 1000% worth it and are with you for your lifetime. There is very little comparison between the two Why are kids compared with pets? . Would anybody compare a spouse with a dog ? Such comparisons are demeaning to both sides of the equation.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Not quite the same as comparing a spouse to a pet. Both children and pets are 100% dependent on you so there are similarities.
xwdv 4y ago
I have found dogs are more of a pain in the ass than kids. Having a dog is like having a kid that is stuck in the early toddler years in terms of effort IMO. Also far less rewarding, as a dog won’t really change much over time once it gets to adulthood fairly quickly. If you could have a dog for some significant length of time, a kid will be no problem by comparison.
- throwaway44111 4y ago
  But not in terms of $$$
  - knaekhoved 4y ago
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  Dogs really need a job. They were domesticated to work along side us. Any owner should invest in training them. Ironically, it is kind of the same with kids, kids really need a job and cultures that put the kids to work doing chores and things at an early age seem to raise better adjusted kids.
knaekhoved 4y ago
A big whitepill and motivation to have kids is to recognize that the Turkheimer laws are correct. If on net you like your own traits, whatever they are, and you want more of those traits to be present in the world, good news - having biological children is an almost surefire way to do so, even if you don't put a ton of effort into it.
morgtheborg 4y ago
I have a dog. I totally thought having a kid would be like having a dog. In the sense that I do a bunch of shit with my dog that I don't necessarily want to do and she is often a burden to things I want to do (mainly travel) but, in aggregate, is worth it. And if having a kid was that negative shit multiplied by some large x with similar or even higher positives, it would be a huge no go. Happily I got the dog a month before I got pregnant. And it is not the same at all. So many things I do for my dog I do out of obligation. I do not often want to walk her. Once I'm walking her or going to the dog park or whatever, I have a nice time but I don't naturally WANT to do it. In contrast, I want, like actively WANT, to do all sorts of absurdly unpleasant things for my eight month old. And society is set up to bring kids to all sorts of activities my dog can't go to --- despite my pup being sig more pleasant to have out and about than my baby. I will say I think a sig portion is hormonal. I would say having a kid was a genuine metamorphosis for me. In contrast, I think my husband had more of a dog-like sense of obligation and is only recently enjoying the kid. As sexist as it may sound, I'd suggest most women who are financially stable with good partners to have at least one kid because I am shocked, utterly shocked, by the fundamental shift in self I've experienced and, frankly, it's cool. Life is short. It's a cool, unique experience worth having. But men? Unless they actively want kids, I'd suggest staying away from it --- the sacrifice to their relationships, lives, etc. seems sig harder to bear since they don't seem to have quite the same hit to their hormones. As my husband says, I take care of baby and he takes care of me. Who takes care of him? I try but baby comes first. That's a hard hit for a man not excited for kids (thankfully my husband is and remains so).
- novok 4y ago
  As the traditional formula goes, you take care of the household. Food, cleanup, chores, shopping, calling the repair guy, etc. Especially as you start getting more free time and school starts acting as a baby sitter.

popularrecluse 4y ago

Well another thought is that the only way to revert this so-called doomerist path is to choose to have and raise kids with empathy for others and with care towards the natural world they've inherited. Because the people who don't give a shit ain't going to stop having them.

gday2020 4y ago
Raising them with good values doesn't mean that they will keep those throughout their life, unfortunately. Quite risky to bet on that.
- maroonblazer 4y ago
  I have no data to support this but I'm willing to bet that the likelihood they do keep those values is significantly greater than the likelihood that they don't. So, a very low risk bet.

sshine 4y ago

I've heard having a dog is like having a kid that never grows up. In some ways they're always more independent of a child. In some ways they never will be.

hattmall 4y ago

Having a dog is legitimately more than a kid 90% of the time if it's an indoor dog you treat like a kid. It's different, but constant and the dog never becomes self sufficient. It's also more challenging to travel with them.

D13Fd 4y ago
With 4 kids and a dog, I tell people this, but no one believes me. Dogs can absolutely be harder than kids a lot of the time.
- ip26 4y ago
  Forgive me- four kids, but how many boys? My dogs can't even comprehend how to be as difficult as my boys.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    One boy. But I’ve never had to spend 20 minutes chasing him to get him back in the house in the morning so he isn’t stuck outside in the cold all day.
sam345 4y ago
I'm sorry I have had both kids and dogs. Dogs are WAY easier and less expensive than kids. On the positive side, kids are 1000% worth it and are with you for your lifetime. There is very little comparison between the two Why are kids compared with pets? . Would anybody compare a spouse with a dog ? Such comparisons are demeaning to both sides of the equation.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Not quite the same as comparing a spouse to a pet. Both children and pets are 100% dependent on you so there are similarities.

xwdv 4y ago

I have found dogs are more of a pain in the ass than kids. Having a dog is like having a kid that is stuck in the early toddler years in terms of effort IMO. Also far less rewarding, as a dog won’t really change much over time once it gets to adulthood fairly quickly. If you could have a dog for some significant length of time, a kid will be no problem by comparison.

throwaway44111 4y ago
But not in terms of $$$
- knaekhoved 4y ago
theGnuMe 4y ago
Dogs really need a job. They were domesticated to work along side us. Any owner should invest in training them. Ironically, it is kind of the same with kids, kids really need a job and cultures that put the kids to work doing chores and things at an early age seem to raise better adjusted kids.

knaekhoved 4y ago

A big whitepill and motivation to have kids is to recognize that the Turkheimer laws are correct. If on net you like your own traits, whatever they are, and you want more of those traits to be present in the world, good news - having biological children is an almost surefire way to do so, even if you don't put a ton of effort into it.

morgtheborg 4y ago

I have a dog. I totally thought having a kid would be like having a dog. In the sense that I do a bunch of shit with my dog that I don't necessarily want to do and she is often a burden to things I want to do (mainly travel) but, in aggregate, is worth it. And if having a kid was that negative shit multiplied by some large x with similar or even higher positives, it would be a huge no go. Happily I got the dog a month before I got pregnant. And it is not the same at all. So many things I do for my dog I do out of obligation. I do not often want to walk her. Once I'm walking her or going to the dog park or whatever, I have a nice time but I don't naturally WANT to do it. In contrast, I want, like actively WANT, to do all sorts of absurdly unpleasant things for my eight month old. And society is set up to bring kids to all sorts of activities my dog can't go to --- despite my pup being sig more pleasant to have out and about than my baby. I will say I think a sig portion is hormonal. I would say having a kid was a genuine metamorphosis for me. In contrast, I think my husband had more of a dog-like sense of obligation and is only recently enjoying the kid. As sexist as it may sound, I'd suggest most women who are financially stable with good partners to have at least one kid because I am shocked, utterly shocked, by the fundamental shift in self I've experienced and, frankly, it's cool. Life is short. It's a cool, unique experience worth having. But men? Unless they actively want kids, I'd suggest staying away from it --- the sacrifice to their relationships, lives, etc. seems sig harder to bear since they don't seem to have quite the same hit to their hormones. As my husband says, I take care of baby and he takes care of me. Who takes care of him? I try but baby comes first. That's a hard hit for a man not excited for kids (thankfully my husband is and remains so).

novok 4y ago
As the traditional formula goes, you take care of the household. Food, cleanup, chores, shopping, calling the repair guy, etc. Especially as you start getting more free time and school starts acting as a baby sitter.