7 ms·

I wonder if there's some sort of game-theory esque problem with cars. As in, the more people drive to a destination, the less pleasant and convenient it is to

I wonder if there's some sort of game-theory esque problem with cars. As in, the more people drive to a destination, the less pleasant and convenient it is to walk the same route, and the more attractive driving becomes. I think, also, the more driving you do in general, the more it feels like the default.

yason 4y ago
It's the school drop-off paradox: https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Picture-1.jpg https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Pic...
mikepurvis 4y ago
Yes, absolutely both of those are factors. Walkability is a classic tragedy of the commons. Which is why it is important and justifiable to occasionally decide collectively to do things that may be perceived as “anti-car”, such as removing (or refusing to build) new car-serving infrastructure such as parking spaces.
munk-a 4y ago
This is definitely the case - I used to work next to a bakery and a shopping market with a deli - great lunch options - but that option was rarely exercised because they were built in the classic American "island in the middle of a sea of parking spaces" style that meant the walk was incredibly unpleasant. Folks who lived with half a mile of the grocery store would drive over just to avoid spending five minutes walking (and dodging cars in) the parking lot. Car oriented infrastructure makes cities less habitable.
- frumper 4y ago
  I'd drive to my grocery store a 1/4 mile away because I don't want to carry a weeks worth of groceries home
  - mikepurvis 4y ago
    I have a friend whose family of five is car free and he does big grocery runs with a hiking pack or even bike trailer. But certainly point taken— that type of thing is well outside the norm. Most carfree urban dwellers I think handle this by just breaking up the shopping into more, smaller trips. Going every two days instead of every seven, and paying a slight premium for smaller packs of stuff like TP vs stockpiling 48 rolls at once. And honestly, some of it is a mindset shift more than anything else. Like a lot of people who do these big whole-week mega shops still seem to be "popping out" to the store (in the car, of course) every other day anyway for some single item they forgot, emergency snacks, whatever. So maybe if you're there anyway, do the work and extend the meal plan another day or two, bring a backpack’s worth of stuff home, and avoid or defer the mega shop that justifies owning a car in the first place.
    - frumper 4y ago
      I would agree that it is manageable to make shopping work without a car, but I'd rather not spend more time going to and from the store, and I'd rather drive a little further to cheaper stores for bulk goods. Also, I don't think the mega shopping is what justifies owning a car, it's more a product that I already have a car because I need to go to work. The car is a sunk cost in most of America.
      - mikepurvis 4y ago
        I feel like both justify the other in some ways: I need a car to do big shopping trips <-> I need to do big shopping trips because I have a car Or, as you say, having a car is just a given most places in America, so there’s not really a question of it being any other way.
      - munk-a 4y ago
        As someone who has lived car free I both agree and disagree with your point. What we tend to do for shopping is occasionally cab/instacart big heavy bulk stuff (like dried beans, canned goods, spices, the 3lbs cut of beef) from Costco/equivalent and then do random small shops through the week to pickup vegetables, fruit and other perishables - it works out quite well and it's nice to be able to plan recipes pretty flexibly.
bobthepanda 4y ago
Basically. America’s high parking requirements are one example for this. The parking lot is usually between a sidewalk (if it hasn’t gotten eaten to expand said parking lot) and the front entrance, reducing a given spot’s walkshed, and both being within a parking lot or crossing its driveways to pass one are not pleasant.
cycomanic 4y ago
I think it's more than that. The more cars are going the less pleasant it becomes for everyone, also cars themselves. But a large amount of people does what everyone else does and just rationalises/justifies it somehow when challenged. I see the same with children. When I was young nobody wanted to be dropped off by their parents, everyone wanted to bike. I see it with my kids somewhat (they are still a bit young to bike to school alone here) and some colleagues kids (who are older) and it is an argument to bike to school. Interestingly this seems to be very school dependent some schools have almost all kids biking while others have none. It is almost like a phase transition.

yason 4y ago

It's the school drop-off paradox: https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Picture-1.jpg https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Pic...

mikepurvis 4y ago

Yes, absolutely both of those are factors. Walkability is a classic tragedy of the commons. Which is why it is important and justifiable to occasionally decide collectively to do things that may be perceived as “anti-car”, such as removing (or refusing to build) new car-serving infrastructure such as parking spaces.

munk-a 4y ago

This is definitely the case - I used to work next to a bakery and a shopping market with a deli - great lunch options - but that option was rarely exercised because they were built in the classic American "island in the middle of a sea of parking spaces" style that meant the walk was incredibly unpleasant. Folks who lived with half a mile of the grocery store would drive over just to avoid spending five minutes walking (and dodging cars in) the parking lot. Car oriented infrastructure makes cities less habitable.

frumper 4y ago
I'd drive to my grocery store a 1/4 mile away because I don't want to carry a weeks worth of groceries home
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I have a friend whose family of five is car free and he does big grocery runs with a hiking pack or even bike trailer. But certainly point taken— that type of thing is well outside the norm. Most carfree urban dwellers I think handle this by just breaking up the shopping into more, smaller trips. Going every two days instead of every seven, and paying a slight premium for smaller packs of stuff like TP vs stockpiling 48 rolls at once. And honestly, some of it is a mindset shift more than anything else. Like a lot of people who do these big whole-week mega shops still seem to be "popping out" to the store (in the car, of course) every other day anyway for some single item they forgot, emergency snacks, whatever. So maybe if you're there anyway, do the work and extend the meal plan another day or two, bring a backpack’s worth of stuff home, and avoid or defer the mega shop that justifies owning a car in the first place.
  - frumper 4y ago
    I would agree that it is manageable to make shopping work without a car, but I'd rather not spend more time going to and from the store, and I'd rather drive a little further to cheaper stores for bulk goods. Also, I don't think the mega shopping is what justifies owning a car, it's more a product that I already have a car because I need to go to work. The car is a sunk cost in most of America.
    - mikepurvis 4y ago
      I feel like both justify the other in some ways: I need a car to do big shopping trips <-> I need to do big shopping trips because I have a car Or, as you say, having a car is just a given most places in America, so there’s not really a question of it being any other way.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      As someone who has lived car free I both agree and disagree with your point. What we tend to do for shopping is occasionally cab/instacart big heavy bulk stuff (like dried beans, canned goods, spices, the 3lbs cut of beef) from Costco/equivalent and then do random small shops through the week to pickup vegetables, fruit and other perishables - it works out quite well and it's nice to be able to plan recipes pretty flexibly.

bobthepanda 4y ago

Basically. America’s high parking requirements are one example for this. The parking lot is usually between a sidewalk (if it hasn’t gotten eaten to expand said parking lot) and the front entrance, reducing a given spot’s walkshed, and both being within a parking lot or crossing its driveways to pass one are not pleasant.

cycomanic 4y ago

I think it's more than that. The more cars are going the less pleasant it becomes for everyone, also cars themselves. But a large amount of people does what everyone else does and just rationalises/justifies it somehow when challenged. I see the same with children. When I was young nobody wanted to be dropped off by their parents, everyone wanted to bike. I see it with my kids somewhat (they are still a bit young to bike to school alone here) and some colleagues kids (who are older) and it is an argument to bike to school. Interestingly this seems to be very school dependent some schools have almost all kids biking while others have none. It is almost like a phase transition.