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The biggest hazard for bike riders is cars, and my understanding is that the risk of getting hit by a car is much lower in the Netherlands due to a combination

The biggest hazard for bike riders is cars, and my understanding is that the risk of getting hit by a car is much lower in the Netherlands due to a combination of infrastructure/legal/cultural differences. (Some of which are no doubt intertwined.) It's possible to fall off a bike and hit your head while riding all on your own, but it's also possible to trip and hit your head while walking - at the relatively slow speeds they cycle at there, they seem to not worry about it so much. EDIT: Also traffic calming is pervasive, so even if somehow you do get hit by a car it's at a much slower speed and therefore much more survivable.

taeric 4y ago
I mean, yes. The biggest risk on the road is cars. So, moving off roads and dedicated biking infrastructure is already moving the needle a lot. However, don't under estimate how much you can hurt with a low speed fall from a bike. Also... this is just what I was asking. I was not intending my ask as a challenge that they are wrong. I'm genuinely interested in the data.
munk-a 4y ago
It's important not to mystify "infrastructure/legal/cultural differences" too much. Too often in north america we hear that biking would never work over here because of "cultural differences" but the netherlands went a rather dramatic shift in infrastructure priorities starting in the 70s that's built this biking utopia - it's very possible for other parts of the world to follow suit!
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't work here. (In fact I'd very much like it to and have been doing whatever I can to push for that.) Infrastructure, culture, and law are not static, though influencing each can be difficult in its own way. But not impossible! It's striking to look at comparison pictures of cities in the Netherlands between the 1970s and today. The old photos could just as well be a lot of cities in the US today: https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amsterdam-historic-images-depicting-the-transition-from-cars-to-bikes/ https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amster...
notch656a 4y ago
Not sure what the data is. I biked 2+ hours almost daily in a major US city for a couple years. Every accident I had was one where I was in a designated bike lane, and the car crossed it to turn or enter a parking lot in an opening. Separating cars from bicycles in my personal anecdotes was what the danger was, I never had issues when I rode on the real road not on a bike lane. Once you're in the bike lane it's like you're in another world and cars forget you're there (and you can't really ride on the regular road when there's a bike lane next to you, as it makes drivers hostile).
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  There is safety in numbers and there's little chance that you'll see any significant portion of the population mixing with traffic on main streets. If you can't expect children and families to ride there, it's not safe enough. On side streets with little car traffic it often does make sense not to separate infrastructure, but traffic calming is then particularly important. http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/11/reality-vs-myth-dangers-of-dutch-cycle.html?m=1 http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/11/reality-vs-myth... That said: > Every accident I had was one where I was in a designated bike lane, and the car crossed it to turn or enter a parking lot in an opening. A "designated bike lane" that's just a strip of paint is also not enough for exactly that reason, and if the bike lane (even a protected one) is frequently interrupted by curb cuts into parking lots that's likewise not bike-friendly design.
- climb_stealth 4y ago
  Do cars have right of way on turns like that? It's an interesting difference between Germany and Australia for example. In Germany bicycles and pedestrians have right of way on roundabouts or driveways. So everyone is used to looking out for cyclists when entering or exiting a roundabout or driveways. It's perfectly natural. In Australia cyclists and pedestrians don't have right of way. Often on foot you have you wait at a roundabout until there are no cars. I think this is a much more dangerous approach as it makes for building bad habits of not having to look out for others.
  - notch656a 4y ago
akgerber 4y ago
Helmets are designed to protect riders from bike crashes, not from cars. Dutch commuter bikes are slow and upright, and many have a low top tube and are thus very easy to hop off of— a 9-12 mph bike crash is not unlike slipping while jogging, whereas a 18-35 mph crash on a road bike is a lot more risky. Lower-speed cycling is enabled by Dutch land use which does not require many long-distance trips: https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-biking-dutch-hardly-bike https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...

taeric 4y ago

I mean, yes. The biggest risk on the road is cars. So, moving off roads and dedicated biking infrastructure is already moving the needle a lot. However, don't under estimate how much you can hurt with a low speed fall from a bike. Also... this is just what I was asking. I was not intending my ask as a challenge that they are wrong. I'm genuinely interested in the data.

munk-a 4y ago

It's important not to mystify "infrastructure/legal/cultural differences" too much. Too often in north america we hear that biking would never work over here because of "cultural differences" but the netherlands went a rather dramatic shift in infrastructure priorities starting in the 70s that's built this biking utopia - it's very possible for other parts of the world to follow suit!

ryukafalz 4y ago
Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't work here. (In fact I'd very much like it to and have been doing whatever I can to push for that.) Infrastructure, culture, and law are not static, though influencing each can be difficult in its own way. But not impossible! It's striking to look at comparison pictures of cities in the Netherlands between the 1970s and today. The old photos could just as well be a lot of cities in the US today: https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amsterdam-historic-images-depicting-the-transition-from-cars-to-bikes/ https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amster...

notch656a 4y ago

Not sure what the data is. I biked 2+ hours almost daily in a major US city for a couple years. Every accident I had was one where I was in a designated bike lane, and the car crossed it to turn or enter a parking lot in an opening. Separating cars from bicycles in my personal anecdotes was what the danger was, I never had issues when I rode on the real road not on a bike lane. Once you're in the bike lane it's like you're in another world and cars forget you're there (and you can't really ride on the regular road when there's a bike lane next to you, as it makes drivers hostile).

ryukafalz 4y ago
There is safety in numbers and there's little chance that you'll see any significant portion of the population mixing with traffic on main streets. If you can't expect children and families to ride there, it's not safe enough. On side streets with little car traffic it often does make sense not to separate infrastructure, but traffic calming is then particularly important. http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/11/reality-vs-myth-dangers-of-dutch-cycle.html?m=1 http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/11/reality-vs-myth... That said: > Every accident I had was one where I was in a designated bike lane, and the car crossed it to turn or enter a parking lot in an opening. A "designated bike lane" that's just a strip of paint is also not enough for exactly that reason, and if the bike lane (even a protected one) is frequently interrupted by curb cuts into parking lots that's likewise not bike-friendly design.
climb_stealth 4y ago
Do cars have right of way on turns like that? It's an interesting difference between Germany and Australia for example. In Germany bicycles and pedestrians have right of way on roundabouts or driveways. So everyone is used to looking out for cyclists when entering or exiting a roundabout or driveways. It's perfectly natural. In Australia cyclists and pedestrians don't have right of way. Often on foot you have you wait at a roundabout until there are no cars. I think this is a much more dangerous approach as it makes for building bad habits of not having to look out for others.
- notch656a 4y ago

akgerber 4y ago

Helmets are designed to protect riders from bike crashes, not from cars. Dutch commuter bikes are slow and upright, and many have a low top tube and are thus very easy to hop off of— a 9-12 mph bike crash is not unlike slipping while jogging, whereas a 18-35 mph crash on a road bike is a lot more risky. Lower-speed cycling is enabled by Dutch land use which does not require many long-distance trips: https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-biking-dutch-hardly-bike https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...