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I kind of love the Netherlands (long story) and we have a huge framed photo from Ikea of a canal in Amsterdam on our kitchen wall. Our youngest knows where the

• marapuru 4y ago
  Fwiw I recently bought helmets for my family. There is a bit of an uplifting trend for helmets, since a popular tv show spent some time promoting them. Or better, spent some time on the ridiculousness of not wearing helmets while cycling. I grew up and still live in the Netherlands.
  • unwind 4y ago
    That's really interesting! And, I guess I think, good for you! Right after writing my post above I had to google "dutch bike helmets" and found stuff like [1] which really makes it very clear that you (as a nation, I mean) just really aren't much into helmets. Cool that there are exceptions, although of course there always are at this level. :)
• skrebbel 4y ago
  I don’t know about Sweden but my wife is Danish and we live in NL. The Danes have the same absolutist attitude to helmets. And, well, seeing the average Danish bicycle infrastructure I get where they’re coming from. Outside some nicer areas in the large cities it gets pretty laughable pretty fast. And Denmark likes to brag about their bicycle infra! I’d wear a helmet in most of Denmark too.
• taeric 4y ago
  Agreed on it being off to see that many kids without helmets. I'm curious on what the stats are. Specifically, why are they so ok without them?
  • ryukafalz 4y ago
    The biggest hazard for bike riders is cars, and my understanding is that the risk of getting hit by a car is much lower in the Netherlands due to a combination of infrastructure/legal/cultural differences. (Some of which are no doubt intertwined.) It's possible to fall off a bike and hit your head while riding all on your own, but it's also possible to trip and hit your head while walking - at the relatively slow speeds they cycle at there, they seem to not worry about it so much. EDIT: Also traffic calming is pervasive, so even if somehow you do get hit by a car it's at a much slower speed and therefore much more survivable.
    • taeric 4y ago
      I mean, yes. The biggest risk on the road is cars. So, moving off roads and dedicated biking infrastructure is already moving the needle a lot. However, don't under estimate how much you can hurt with a low speed fall from a bike. Also... this is just what I was asking. I was not intending my ask as a challenge that they are wrong. I'm genuinely interested in the data.
    • munk-a 4y ago
      It's important not to mystify "infrastructure/legal/cultural differences" too much. Too often in north america we hear that biking would never work over here because of "cultural differences" but the netherlands went a rather dramatic shift in infrastructure priorities starting in the 70s that's built this biking utopia - it's very possible for other parts of the world to follow suit!
      • ryukafalz 4y ago
        Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't work here. (In fact I'd very much like it to and have been doing whatever I can to push for that.) Infrastructure, culture, and law are not static, though influencing each can be difficult in its own way. But not impossible! It's striking to look at comparison pictures of cities in the Netherlands between the 1970s and today. The old photos could just as well be a lot of cities in the US today: https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amsterdam-historic-images-depicting-the-transition-from-cars-to-bikes/ https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amster...
• lucb1e 4y ago
  > I know that selling bike safety ideas to the Dutch is like selling ice to the Innuit Lol! That's the best saying I've heard in a looong time :D It's interesting that you love the Netherlands as a Swede. From my point of view, it's always the nordics (iceland, norway, sweden, finland) that have the insane happiness, social mobility, etc. ratings, and I love (at least the mental picture of) warm homes in a cold, snowy, foresty climate/environment. If y'all spoke English (or Dutch, I guess) over there as a primary language, I'm actually quite sure I'd have moved there, at least for a couple years. (Currently living in and learning German(y) and I find it very hard, so for me the language is kind of prohibitive unless I'd be sure I wanted to move away from my current life and fully commit to fitting in somewhere new.) Living for two months in Finland didn't destroy that mental picture at all, and though I was impressed with the English being absolutely impeccable from anyone under 60 years old, the colloquially used language is clearly a local language. A local hacker space was very welcoming, but many things are in Swedish/Finnish because that's simply what everyone there speaks. I'd be interested in this 'long story' if you are willing to share it!
  • samvher 4y ago
    As a Dutch person I learned some Swedish and some German (both not very well, but enough to go around) and I found Swedish significantly easier. It feels more similar to Dutch/English in terms of grammar and flow. Just one data point, but maybe useful for you to know!
    • kazen44 4y ago
      as a dutchman, i once stumbled across some swedes in a bar. With enough beer, im convinced we would be able to speak the same language at a certain point.
  • napoleongl 4y ago
    Both the Dutch and Swedes (and I guess it goes for Norway and Denmark as well) generally speak English. So much so that my colleagues from other countries find it a problem in that they get very few opportunities to learn Swedish; because everyone just switches to English when they are around.
• dtech 4y ago
  I find it quite jarring to see all the Swedish people walking without helmets on those icy streets! The number of bicycle accidents is quite small and the number of serious head injuries even smaller, helmets would save less than 5 children yearly [1]. This is mostly due to education, both primary school cyclists and driver's license and road design separating cars and bicycles. [1] https://swov.nl/nl/fact/fietshelmen-hoeveel-slachtoffers-zouden-fietshelmen-kunnen-besparen https://swov.nl/nl/fact/fietshelmen-hoeveel-slachtoffers-zou...
  • itronitron 4y ago
    I've actually thought about wearing a bike helmet while walking outside during the winter season. The alternative is putting on crampons which seems like more of a hassle but has the added benefit of preventing slipping on ice so would also protect my wrists and shoulders.
• teekert 4y ago
  I think the helmets would just be too much of a hassle, making them mainstream would take people off bikes again? It messes with your hair, it's hot in summer, difficult to combine with a hat in winter, you have to put it somewhere when going places, like bars. And make no mistake, here we jump on an off bikes all day, I would really hate to have to wear one on a bike. (I do wear one when mtb-ing btw!) I'm 40, lived for all of my life in the Netherlands, I hardly saw any accidents, and I never ever saw any accident where a helmet would be of any use. Yeah it's anecdotal, but I feel it's just safe enough. I feel the same about biking as I do about walking. Helmets wouldn't make it safer. But, show me the data to convince me otherwise. Still, lets say it makes things safer, I wonder if the net effect would still be negative because it would drive people into cars, where you don't need a (stupid!) helmet. I think it's difficult for people from other places to imagine just how little cars you encounter with good bike paths, and how people drive around you when everybody is a "cyclist" (hate the word, it's just normal here) and a driver. For example in a collision, it's always the car's responsibility [0], because pedestrians and people on bikes are considered vulnerable, they always get 50-100% off their damages paid. It creates a certain culture. [0] https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansprakelijkheid/voetganger-of-fietser https://www.anwb.nl/juridisch-advies/aanrijding-en-dan/aansp...
  • notch656a 4y ago
    I left my motorcycle helmet attached to a motorcycle for YEARS in high-crime areas and never had it stolen (arguably worth more than a bicycle helmet -- but who really wants to buy a used helmet). Realize it's an anecdote but honestly I don't see the big risk in leaving the helmet on the bike when you go in the bar.
  • undefinedzero 4y ago
    > I think the helmets would just be too much of a hassle While probably true, I think the emphasis is misplaced. The primary reason helmets aren’t as encouraged as elsewhere is the immense bike infrastructure that keeps cyclists safe. The risk is much much much smaller than in car focussed places.
  • vl 4y ago
    There is integrated chain and wheel lock on dutch bikes already, it is trivial to add basket for helmet storage as "standard" feature. In the last 20 years large shift happened in skiing, for example. 20 years ago almost no-one would wear ski helmet is US, now almost anyone does, although it's not required.
• tigerlily 4y ago
  If you practice a bit of judo you learn to keep your head off the ground.
  • jessaustin 4y ago
    That may be the best way to learn this skill, but really any physical activity will contribute. If, as a child, you've wrestled with your sibling, or played tag, or played soccer, or skateboarded, or indeed, ridden a bike, you've practiced keeping your head off the ground when falling. As an adult, I have catastrophically wrecked, at high speed, on asphalt, both while cycling (destroyed the front fork) and while rollerblading, without a helmet, and in both cases flipped and skidded on a shoulder without touching my head. As a child, I had done that when falling from horses.
• riedel 4y ago
  I cycle every day to work in Germany and my 3 year old daughter already cycles in the city (not alone obviously). However, I would always wear a a helmet and I think it saved me at least once from worse. I really wonder how Dutch infrastructure could have saved me from getting hit by a 90 year old lady on the way to get doctor on city neighborhood road (was fascinating to see how the helmet absorbed the energy). It might be rather that Dutch drivers learned to share roads with bikes (although I am always scared of Dutch bus drivers when the overtake you on a bicycle)
  • hosh 4y ago
    I remember an article about that — bike ridership is so widespread that most drivers have someone in their family that bikes, if not a biker themself.
  • pharmakom 4y ago
    Would you wear a helmet to drive a car? Or walk down the steet? Why not?
    • JamesianP 4y ago
      A car is basically a huge powered helmet.
      • pharmakom 4y ago
        Helmets in cars can be very effective. This is why racing drivers wear them.
        • Handytinge 4y ago
          They also travel significantly faster than normal road users. Yes, if I was travelling 300kmph in my car, I would wear a helmet.
  • Vinnl 4y ago
    One part is to not share roads, but to have separate bike paths. Physical separation (e.g. trees between cars and bikes) is another method. There's lots of clever things infrastructure folks have come up with; Not Just Bikes is the classic YouTube channel that details many of them.
• stevesimmons 4y ago
  I cycle all the time in the Netherlands. When I ride my city bike, I never wear a helmet. When I ride my race bike, I always do, as do most others. The two manners of riding are so different. They both feel equally safe. I do have a scar on my nose from falling head first onto the road. That was riding my city bike. While carrying a TV. In a rainstorm. With no hands on the handlebars. So 100% my fault :)
  • pmontra 4y ago
    Did the TV survive the crash?
    • stevesimmons 4y ago
      It did. I somehow threw the TV onto the footpath as I fell. Its box and polystyrene packing did their job.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• ozay 4y ago
  They don't wear helmets because they aren't zooming around like Lance Armstrong. The risk of accidents with head injuries a helmet would help against is limited. Same thing why you don't wear a helmet when you go by car although an occupants risk of head injuries in a typical accident is comparable.
  • itronitron 4y ago
    You can't really equate safety gear across different modes of transportation, otherwise if you wear a seat belt when riding in a car then why not wear a seat belt when riding a bicycle?
• acchow 4y ago
  They bike very slowly tho. Almost painfully slowly to me. The low speed keeps them safe, even in accidents.
• Someone 4y ago
  It’s social science, and a ‘proper’ experiment can’t really be done, but the scientists expect the gain from making helmets mandatory would be more than offset by the loss in health from making cycling less popular. Many people also don’t realize that many Dutch cyclists typically don’t cycle very fast. The average speed of people on bicycles is 12.4km/hour (https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/dutch-cycling-figures/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/dutch-cycling-...). That’s a speed that young runners also can reach fairly easily. Should they wear helmets, too on the road? And those who go faster often _do_ wear helmets. Recommended reading: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/bicycle-helmets-the-dutch-way/ https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2019/08/05/bicycle-helmet...
  • xani__ 4y ago
• leokennis 4y ago
  Source: am Dutch. Sure, helmets would make cycling safer. Helmets would also make walking on the sidewalk safer. But I bet you don’t wear a helmet there. This implies there is some level of risk you’re willing to take before you wear a helmet. My theory is that cycling in the Netherlands is safer than it is in most countries. Just some factors: - People mainly cycle for transport, not for sport: you sit upright, you go relatively slowly - Every car driver in the Netherlands is also a cyclist sometimes, so people know how cyclists behave and respect them - Cycling is everywhere: you don’t encounter cyclists only in the center of big cities, basically every road except (often, not always!) highways will have cycle paths in parallel so as a car driver you encounter cyclists everywhere and anywhere - The bicycle infrastructure is fantastic: if possible bike lanes are separated from car lanes by greenery or trees or something, bike lanes don’t cross right next to intersections (so you’re not in the blind spot of a car making a turn - the car already turned and then crosses the bike path) etc.
  • heretoo 4y ago
    Not comparing, but is it really safe? https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/cycling-injuries-three-times-more-than-official-figures/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/cycling-injuries-three... 50,000 serious injuries in one year seems considerable.
    • hoosieree 4y ago
      I have a theory that requiring helmets would reduce bicycle usage, making people in general less healthy. It would also increase the ratio of cars to bikes, making roads more dangerous. I think the net effect would be worse outcomes. I'd love to see evidence of this (either proving or disproving) but it seems like a hard thing to measure. That said, I always wear a helmet when biking, but I never wear a helmet when driving, and I am aware of the irony.
      • mcv 4y ago
        I believe when Australia introduced mandatory helmets, bicycle use indeed dropped dramatically. That's definitely a big part of why many Dutch are opposed to mandatory helmet laws. Helmets should probably be mandatory for e-bikes, though. They go a lot faster, and more importantly: faster than people realise.
• NegativeLatency 4y ago
  A common misconception is that helmets protect you from cars, according to the helmet manufacturers they are not: > “There are many misconceptions about helmets,” Richter told British trade magazine Cycling Industry News on July 6. > “We do not design helmets specifically to reduce chances or severity of injury when impacts involve a car,” said Richter. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/10/bicycle-helmets-not-designed-for-impacts-from-cars-stresses-leading-maker-giro https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/07/10/bicycle-...
  • semi-extrinsic 4y ago
    Whoa, there is a huge difference between "not specifically designed to protect against" and "does not protect against". A bike helmet is not specifically designed to protect against a brick falling from a building and hitting your head. But would you rather experience such an event with a bike helmet, or without? Also you should take any article singing the praise of MIPS for regular bike helmets with a huuuge grain of salt. MIPS as it's been designed and tested for motorbike/downhill racing/etc. is a definite advantage. But those are all systems where the helmet is so tight it's almost glued to your head. And if you look up the research papers on MIPS, they use test stands with a crash test head and literally glue the helmets to the head before testing. A bike helmet is so far from firmly attached that the 10-15mm rotational slip offered by MIPS is obviously pointless.
• fleddr 4y ago
  It is weird, but any discussion on safety is in vain: we will NOT wear helmets. Period. Increasingly, it has become mandatory to wear helmets on the several varieties of slow motorized vehicles like scooters. I think we're now down to the slowest category of 30km/h. As a result, that industry collapses. Once a helmet is mandatory, we dump it.